518: All Roads Lead Back to Cider | Denis Gwatkin

For some people out there, making cider becomes a way of life. Here’s this week’s guest, farmer and cider maker, Denis Gwatkin. Yeah. I’m a sort of person, I suppose, I’ve, I’ve never been on holiday in my life. I work 365 days a year. I enjoy what I do. I, you know, I- So you’re maybe always on holiday as that kind of work-life balance.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, yes, that work-life balance. Doesn’t that sound familiar? How do you juggle it all? And in this case, we’re hearing from a champion of it, who’s been doing that for many, many years. We’re gonna be hearing from Denis Gwatkin of Gwatkin Cider Mill based in Herefordshire, England on this here episode 518 of Cider Chat.

Hello, my name is Ria Windcaller, and I am the producer and cider MC of this weekly podcast where we speak with makers, cider enthusiasts, and folks within the cider trade from around the [00:01:00] world. Hip hip hooray Coming up is our featured presentation with Denis Gwatkin, which was recorded in person back in April, and I am just so excited to finally release it.

I’m gonna be talking more about that shortly. But first, a wee bit of news from out and about in Ciderville. Cider Feast Boston is coming up on Saturday, November 14th. This is a cider event. It’s all about tasting a whole range of ciders from the New England area. So do check it out. It’s gonna be taking place in South Boston at the Lithuanian Citizens Association, and I’ll be there.

I’ve got questions ready for those of us making our way around the tasting tables, such as, what are you discovering? What’s surprising you? What cider do you want somebody else to try? I’m looking forward to hearing all those answers and bringing some of that conversation back to Cider Chat, and I hope you’re going.

And if you are, please send me a message [00:02:00] on Instagram via @ciderchatciderville. I’d love to say hello. Find links to the tickets to Cider Feast Boston in the show notes for this here episode 518 at ciderchat.com. On the recent eCider newsletter, we talked about the Argentina Spirits Award in Mendoza, which has added cider to its competition this year, alongside new categories for mead and kombucha.

Here in the United States, the Great American Beer Festival featured five cider categories in its 2026 competition. Now, these are opportunities to introduce more people to just how much variety cider offers, and I tell you, that is cider going up news, and we’re here to follow it. Make sure you subscribe to eCider News at ciderchat.com.

Now, if you follow the drinks and cider news as closely as I do, you are also likely seeing an [00:03:00] uptick in promotional wine videos rolling out on social media. Is it just me, or do you see not only wine but beer leaning into what cider has been doing since social media was a thing? That really, really feels so familiar here in Ciderville.

Learning about apples is fun. Discovering cider is fun. But what keeps me coming back is the community. You could get deep into apple varieties and fermentation or simply enjoy what’s in your glass. There’s room for both at the same table. That’s the cider world I love. You don’t have to prove what you know to pull up a chair.

You’re gonna be hearing some of that spirit in today’s conversation with Denis. He enjoys what he does, and he’s built a place where other people can come enjoy it too. And visiting places like that, meeting makers, and spending time around the tables is what Totally Cider Tours is all about. So let’s take a look at your 2027 calendar.[00:04:00]

The Blossom Time Cider Tour to France is in the works for the end of April with Paris, Normandy, and Brittany, and the wait list is growing. Every trip has something new, and there’s a stop for this tour I’m especially excited to share with you. It’s going to be a hike at Étretat on the Normandy coast. I did this very hike in September, and I have to tell you, it has left me weightless in the best possible way.

I mean, I’m talking about weightless in my mind and my soul, which is really something that I’m always searching for in, in the day and age where it feels so heavy out there. I really seek these opportunities. And yeah, I’ve been to some magnificent places around the world, but those immense white cliffs, the arches, and the sea below them really, really stayed with me.

It looks like a scene from a movie, except you’re standing in it. You look [00:05:00] out and the sheer scale of the place takes over your attention. The walk alone is worth the trip. But for Totally Cidered Tours, we like to add on that glass, and in this case, with further exploration at La Mer à Bois, a seaside shop with undoubtedly the widest selection of Calvados in France to peruse, which is, that alone is cool in and of itself.

So imagine, you just walk through the landscape, and now you get to taste another part of Normandy. Ooh, la la. But for 2027, I am not only looking at France, but also a return to the UK in August. It’s part of why I’ve been holding onto this conversation with Denis Gwatkin. I’ve led both summer and blossom time tours there, and I’ve been thinking about what a return could look like, such as a dinner at Gwatkin’s Cider Mill’s Red Cow Restaurant.

That is definitely on the list. We did it in the last tour to the UK, and it was a [00:06:00] really big hit. Just check out the little Instagram reel I’ll be rolling out when this episode goes live, and I’ll put a link in the show notes to it, too. So if going on a cider tour is something that you’ve been hankering to do, we’ve got two amazing ones in the lineup for 2027.

If you’d like to get on the wait list for either, send an email this way to info@ciderchat.com. Let me know which tour interests you, and we’ll put you on the list to hear more as the plans come together. It’s time now for our featured presentation. We’re gonna be heading to Herefordshire, England, and hearing how a few friends making cider then grew into a destination where you could taste cider and perry, settle in for a meal, camp, and catch a music festival, all at the same location out in the country.

Talk about heaven on Earth. You’re gonna be hearing how all that came together and meeting Denis Gwatkin [00:07:00] of Gwatkin Cider Mill, making this a very fine time to grab a glass and join this chat

I’m so excited to have this opportunity to have you on Cider Chat. One of my bucket list goals to be able to have a sit down with you and talk about what you’re doing here. Thank you very much and welcome. Now, we are meeting on this absolutely gorgeous day. I understand it never rains in the UK.

You obviously haven’t been here that long. And the drive here to the, it’s a cider mill, the farm, the caravan park, it’s absolutely glorious. Why don’t we hear a little bit of the backstory of the farm itself and how cider came into being into your life in that way? It’s a traditional Herefordshire farm really.

We grow Hereford cattle, the old traditional horned varieties, which obviously go for beef. We keep sheep. We cross the, again, the Ryeland is the Hereford breed, and we cross it [00:08:00] with Welsh mules to have nice lamb for the table as well. We- family’s been farming probably in these areas forevermore, but my great-granddad purchased the farm in 1919 after the First World War.

It was part of the local estate where they were tenant farmers, and sadly, all the menfolk were wiped out in the First World War, and there was no one to carry on, so the estate was sold off. So luckily- For a lot of the people that were farming it, they had chances to buy into it, and it’s come from there really.

Various members of my family, uncles and aunties, it’s gone round the mix, but we’re it’s down to us now. Cider has always been a traditional drink in this part of Herefordshire. It is the local drop as you might say. But the culture of cider-making sadly, like most parts of Britain, the cider-making parts of Britain, the West [00:09:00] Country, declined when the commercial large, ones we will not name, cider companies came in and started taking over and planting vast orchards and giving contracts.

And I think also the history of cider, I know my mother used to say when she was a little girl, part of the wages on farms like this were paid in cider. The better the cider you made, the better the workforce you got. Mm. Because you couldn’t pop down the road for a Coca-Cola or a lemonade or a… It’s very much entwined in what agriculture does.

And I think because obviously machinery become a lot more technical and probably dangerous to work with if you were a little bit under the influence, you might say. True. It, it added to… And then of course one of the governments, I think it was in the 1970s, put tax on cider because before that it was part of a workman’s wages.

And so adding all that together, cider [00:10:00] became a more mass-produced thing. And sadly, from the Second World War on, there was a decline in, i- in traditional, what we call, what we make, farmhouse cider. Because obviously we try to make cider the way it’s always been made in these regions. Was it always expected that you were gonna become a cider maker in this capacity or a farmer?

Is that what you were kinda, “When I grow up, I wanna be…” Not really. I suppose the, actually the cider-making came by chance because I grew up on the farm. I labored on various local farms to learn some new ideas and all, all that sort of reason. But the truth is, cider-making had stopped on this farm probably 20-odd years, 30-odd years previous.

It was myself and a mate and a few others thought, actually, there’s a bit of old kit knocking around. We could restore it a little bit, and we just started to find the local pub at [00:11:00] that stage and we thought if we could possibly make a little bit of cider we could share with our mates, have a drink before we went to the pub, and one things leads to another.

And w- we did successfully knock a bit of kit together, and I was quite lucky in the fact my father and my uncle and that, an uncle from down in Gloucestershire, but he was a, in his area was a very renowned cider maker and perry maker. Yes. He probably forgot more than most people would know about the job, and he t- used to take me aside and I was, take me rabbiting and all the things you like doing when you’re a young lad, and cider was one of the things he instilled into me a little bit.

And so when w- my mates and myself started making this cider, it was, it was Very traditional, very strong, very, for want of a better word, scrumpy-like. And, and there’s a bit of a, the story to it. We made a batch of perry, which we were quite pleased with. But when I say batches, we were making [00:12:00] 40 gallon barrels, and we’d probably only make three of those a season, which is quite a lot to drink it.

Mm-hmm. And I had a visit from a, a chappie, through Outside of Chat, you may have heard of him, he’s quite legendary, John Hallam. He was basically a CAMRA through the campaign from Real Ale- Mm-hmm … started in the ’70s in Britain- Right … because the beer in this country had gone very desperate, and there was a, a mindset to get the old traditions back and some quality stuff back.

And luckily they had same idealism with cider, and they were touring round the farms looking for a few old producers, and they were running festivals, and they were re-encouraging it to people. Mm-hmm. And he happened to stop here looking for somewhere else. Yeah. He was looking for a cider maker that sadly had, I think, gone out of the area.

And after a long conversation at the [00:13:00] garden gate, he said, “Surely the depths of Herefordshire there must be somewhere I can find some.” And I said, “I’ve got a couple of barrels down the cellar, but you’re not gonna be interested in that I’m sure.” “Oh, I am.” So anyway, after a bit of persuasion he had a taste, and I could see his eyes going round.

And he said, “Would you sell me 10 gallon?” I think it was. And I thought, not really, I’m gonna get in trouble with me mates and… But then I thought they were drinking a lot more than me at the time, and I was doing most of the work. And I thought, do you know what? I will own up to that one. And- Opportunity knocked, right?

Go for it. And I ended up, he had this cider, took it away, and I thought, that’s the last I’ll hear. And it was perry. Took it away and it went to a, a CAMRA festival in the north of England, and it won Champion Perry of the Festival. So the phone rang and the Hereford Times, he informed the local newspaper, so I had to come clean with my mates, didn’t I?

And that was the bad thing about it. And that was a perry. That was a [00:14:00] perry, yeah. Wow. And what was the variety or what was it? It was… I’m pretty sure at the time it was a Moorcroft, which is an old-fashioned, you know- Right … pear variety. Which they call Stinking Bishop. Stinking Bishop, that’s it. Wow. And, and again, I used to get the pears off my uncle down at Gloucester.

He had a ray. He was through the Severn Vale. Yeah. And obviously Herefordshire is very famous for cider, obviously, but Gloucestershire- Perry … for perry. Perry, yeah. And anyway, won this award and, and then obviously these guys come back and said, “Will you start making on a regular basis?” And, and we did, but… A- and it all came from that really.

Um- That was the beginning, that award, like- Yeah … then said, “Okay, I could go outside of just working with my mates and-” Yeah … “maybe continue on to a bigger scale.” We spoke about it and nobody else wanted to get involved. They just, they had their own thing and- Yeah … so I thought, “Do you know what? We…” I- I’m quite a historian.

I love the past. I live in the past and- Yeah … I thought, “Do you know what? Let’s get this going again.” And- Yeah … with a bit of help from my uncle and various people, we started to make a little bit [00:15:00] more and a little bit more, and my other half, who says, “If that man hadn’t have knocked at our blooming door that day, we’d have a normal life now.”

But who wants one of them, eh? No. No. Yeah. But- Remember normal. No. Not with cider you can’t. And at the time there was, again, even with the cider makers, there was a few of the older guys that had stayed the course were finishing, so I suppose it was like a new wave coming through. There was ourselves, there was a gentleman, Kevin Minchew.

Yeah. There was Mike from Ross. Mm. Mike Johnson. But it was at that sort of time, and not long behind was guys like Tom and- So- It was almost like a revolution, I suppose. It was- Yeah … it was back on the map and yeah, and I think what’s nice a- as well, mentioning those names, they’re all very great, good cider makers.

Yeah. But every cider maker’s got their own way and their own- Yeah … we don’t copy. We find our own ways, and I think it’s lovely that the traditions are really kept alive to the area you’re [00:16:00] from as well. Yeah. So yeah, that’s about the long and short of it. My goodness. So you’ve been doing this for, would we say…

Are you in the 30-year range? 35 years. 35-year range. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And we’re in this beautiful room right now. Very tall ceilings. I’m gonna say, I don’t know how m- many meters, but I’m gonna say it’s 25 feet at the peak there. This extra room, n- not including the extra addition, which is all part of the Red Cow Restaurant, and then you have the caravan park in the back, and the cidery, and you have events- I know the buildings were here, but give us a little map of the timeline of, as things evolved, and what was that like as a businessman doing that?

It must feel a little bit risky- … right? Well- Was it all like, “Oh, it’s great. Everybody’s making perry and cider,” right? Yeah. It, it’s one of those things, I think, things snowball, things grow. Uh, and I tell everybody all roads lead back to cider somewhere, and that’s very true because I think [00:17:00] we, we started…

Like, we do a lot of shows as a company. We do over 100 events a year, which are, like, game fairs, steam fairs, agricultural shows, food festivals, cider festivals. And I think people got different ways of marketing their product. I know there’s the f- internet, which we use as well, but I’m a bit old-fashioned.

I like to go out, sell my goods on a stall, talk to the public, talk to the punters- Sure … get responses, good, bad, and indifferent. And, and I think that’s what led to it, really. People would say at the show, “Can I come to your farm and purchase it?” So the first thing was build a little cider shop. Okay. Get it licensed, and then people would say, “We’ve traveled from-” London today to have your cider.

Is there anywhere we can get something to eat? So the next stop was- Okay … a little bit of food to go with it. A few sandwiches, a few… Which then, I don’t know how, developed into a restaurant. Yeah. Ha- has The Red Cow been here then? [00:18:00] About four years now. Four years, yeah. And it’s fantastic. We, we thought if we’re gonna do it where people can actually enjoy the cider and the food and- Yeah

and then I suppose people then, you get to the stage where you think if people are drinking cider, they can’t really drive, so we need a campsite. So that was the next part of it. And then obviously we run events here. We run a steam fair here, which we get about 5,000 people to on a Saturday. What time of year is that?

That’s June. That’s June. June. Um- Is it always the same weekend? Yeah, always the same. First weekend of June. Yeah. Which again, is all vintage tractors, motorbikes, cars, steam engine. Oh. It’s all a look into the past really. Tug of war, all the things that people would’ve done in areas like this 100 years ago.

Sure. And then we run a three-day rock festival in August with various different types of music and bands. Obviously I’m quite an old rocker at heart really, so I… That’s developed. But it all links back to the cider barn and- And you have a stage out [00:19:00] here. Yeah, we have a stage. Yeah, you have a stage. Yeah.

What weekend in August is that? That’s the second weekend of August. Second weekend. Yeah. First weekend in June, second weekend in August. Put that in your calendars, folks. Okay. It, it all progresses into things that happen, but again, like I say, all things lead back to cider. And even more so the farm, because even though we’ve got all these side businesses now, the cider’s a bit more than a side business because it takes over your life, but in a nice way.

Mm. But the farm is still the precious thing to us. That is our home, our soil. We love the Hereford cattle. We’ve managed to keep the old, you know… I always call it the Dark Ages of farming. I don’t know about other parts, like where you’re from or other parts of the world, but I think it was a, a big thing to Mass production of, after the Second World War, they just kept encouraging people to quantity, not quality.

And, and w- and lots of different breeds of animals were farmed in Britain, and as my old uncle used to say, [00:20:00] “They’re for towing a plow boy, not eating.” And I think it’s true. What you’ve got in your heritage is what works for you on this farm. My beauty of this job, on, on a Saturday I might go to a show and talk to 1,000 people selling cider.

I’ll come back Monday morning, I go on top of our hill and I talk to three cows, and it, the difference is lovely. It grounds you, right? It grounds you, yeah. You come back into nature full on, and- Yeah … and the nature around here, it’s just teeming. I lo- This is my second time out here, and each time I’m just enchanted by the landscape.

Yeah. No, it’s unspoiled. It’s as it was. Yeah. And that’s lovely. How close are we to the border of Wales? We’re about five miles, six miles at the shortest. It’s, it’s quite a thing round here, obviously the rivalry. You don’t wanna be round here in a pub on rugby match day when England play Wales. Oh my goodness.

Because the thing is, no matter what we all say, Gwatkin is a very Welsh name, and y- you go back in, I think it was about [00:21:00] 400, 500 years ago, this part of Herefordshire was Wales. So obviously the heritage, there’s, there’s… If you go five miles over the Welsh border, there’s probably more English than Welsh.

You go five miles in the English border, there’s more Welsh than E- And it’s a right old mix, isn’t it, you know? It seems like good fun here in the UK, wherever you are. It’s a very sports-minded country, it feels. Yeah. It’s, uh- Takes it seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the thing, I think it’s a bit like drinking cider or playing sport, it’s a thing that draws people together.

It’s- Right … it’s what everybody needs, I think, a bit of comradeship and… We’ve even had cricket matches on the farm. A local cider- Wow … companies have come here and played us, and- Wow … and it’s nothing professional. We just mow a strip in the field, roll it up, and have a game of cricket. Have a game. Now, in that time, 35 years of having a commercial cidery- What have you noticed?

What are some of the things that have changed? Now we’re talking in 2026. Sound like early on there was [00:22:00] a lot of excitement. Some of the folks you mentioned, you know, Mike Johnson from Ross-on-Wye Cider and Perry Company, and all these different individuals. It’s a long period of time. Did you see the ebb and flow and- There’s been massive changes in this industry, probably like any other industry.

The world never stops spinning. We’ve gone through all the … ‘Cause like when I say I got involved, it was like the new wave of single variety ciders. Mm. Because in the past, I think the old-fashioned pre-war days, they didn’t do single varieties or anything like it. It was all- All blended in. And I think it was marketed.

We were involved in it, some of the other guys, more of a table product in wine- Yeah … bottle sizes. And I suppose you wanted to make the traditional farmhouse cider, but you ought to wanted to make something that rivaled wine and was more acceptable. Not looked on as rough scrumpy then, you know what I mean?

Right. And, and I think that came along, but i- in the commercial world, we’ve seen [00:23:00] Magners was the big thing. I don’t know whether you’re very aware of that, but it came, it was over ice. It’d done more for cider sales in probably six months on what the cider industry had done in the last 50 years. I’m not saying it was necessarily our way of making cider by any means but it put cider in people’s minds.

It was on all the TV adverts. It was … Everybody was In the summer was the younger generation, they drinking cider. Yeah, yeah. And the way I look at it, some of the old purists, they say, “Oh, well, I don’t cider.” But like I’d say to them, we can’t supply the world with cider the way we make it. Let them spend it on advertising.

We haven’t got those budgets, and it’s gonna benefit us because it’s a steppingstone. People try that cider and if one in 10 ends up drinking real cider- Mm … it’s, it’s a nice thing. And also everybody got different tastes. Yeah. And then the pear cider thing came [00:24:00] along, which isn’t perry. It’s, again- A pear a- and with cider.

Yes. Yes. Okay. They market it very well, the large commercial companies. Mm-hmm. Mainly because there just are not enough perry pears in this world to make mass production perry, ’cause they only really grow in Herefordshire, Worcestershire, and Gloucestershire, in little parts of Wales. They just couldn’t do it.

But they very cleverly marketed this animal that was equivalent to perry, but was pear cider. And then of course, when that just about ran out, basically it’s fruit ciders. Which… Where people… Let’s just explain what that is for folks listening. Fruit ciders where you’d have something like a, a berry, like raspberry- Uh-huh

blueberry, could be pineapple. Is- Yeah. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. And, and I think again, a lot of the traditionalists rightly or wrongly said that in cider and… But the thing is, this one isn’t a fad, it’s gonna run through. It’s getting bigger and bigger all [00:25:00] the time. Mm. And I think even what you call the purest cider makers are making some sort of fruit cider now because- Okay

if you’ve gotta make a living out of it, and it’s- Yeah … a business, and you employ people, and blah blah, the tax man and all the rest of it, you’ve gotta… So I’m a big believer if you make it the proper way, apples are fruit, pears are fruit, strawberries are fruit. I don’t think it’s ideal for people in Herefordshire.

I’m not knocking it, but for me personally, to be making pineapple cider. Because we’re not going out and picking these pineapples, are we? I don’t see any pineapples growing out here. No. Yeah. You’re, you- You’re keeping to what’s- What’s local. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we, even though it is straying off the track a little bit, I think you can justify- Did, did it take you a little bit to wrap your mind around that?

Definitely. Okay. A long time. And I’m still questioning myself- … every time I go to a show and sell a pint of it. I almost find myself- … explaining myself, which… And I think the, the sad thing is [00:26:00] really, we’ll go to a show and we’ll sell three pints of strawberry cider to every one pint of normal cider. No kidding.

No kidding. But they’re still buying cider. Within that strawberry cider is still real cider. We still use apple as the base. And I just think- Oh … if it encourages people to swap over, ’cause a lot of the people that are drinking it are- 18, 19, 20-year-olds And they evolve. They’re powerful- They evolve

evolve. Yeah. So as long as they’re evolving to drink more cider eventually, hopefully. So cider in, in, in your vantage point has definitely evolved to become more of an open cup drink in many ways, right? Many ways, yeah. And I guess we could really thank the apple for being so welcoming and to, to be able to do that, ’cause you can’t necessarily do that with every product.

No. And I just think the o- the other point with it, as you are seeing across the Herefordshire landscape and probably a lot of the other cider parts- Mm-hmm … of the country, traditionally around [00:27:00] here we grow bittersweet. Bit- cider apples come in full sharps, bitter sharps, bittersweet, sweet. There’s, there, there’s certain types of variety that grow for the certain types of cider.

And most of it was on standard orchard rootstock, which was lovely ’cause all our sheep and could graze under them- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … fertilize them and all the rest of it. But slowly now, even m- mainly with the commercial companies, they were growing bittersweet that they’d engineered for their own purposes, but they were still bittersweet cider apples.

You wouldn’t eat them, you wouldn’t cook them. But the sad thing is now because of the trend of the fruit ciders, a lot of the old bittersweet orchards are being pushed out commercially I know. Huh Because if you’re making a raspberry cider- Mm … if you’ve got a strong cider base full of character and tannins and all the rest of it, you’re gonna [00:28:00] need three times the raspberry juice to overpower that That bittersweet.

Yeah Whereas if you’ve got a quite, uh, a blander- Wow … flavored tasting cider, you probably need a third less. So commercially, you can see why. And it’s very sad to see because of this rapid growth in the fruit ciders, the bittersweet orchards are being pushed out and replaced with dessert apples for one- That is mind-boggling For b- i- it’s tragic really Yeah, it is Because historically, the West Country, Worcestershire, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall, all down the strip, was where cider was made from bittersweet traditional cider apples Right You went the east coast of England, where you’ve got Suffolk, Norfolk, Kent, it was all eating apples and dessert.

And they made cider, but they make a very different style of cider. Mm. It’s a lighter, crisper, more wine-like cider- Mm … because they haven’t got the bittersweet. But [00:29:00] sadly, those apples far suit the fruit varieties and we are seeing, I don’t mean to name the large companies, but we all know who they are.

They are slowly … Building it out. Wow. Building it out That, that’s sad because coming from the US, we’ve been coveting the apple varieties that you have here for so long and planting and planting- Mm … trying to catch up to get those- I know, yeah, yeah … particular apple varieties and To hear it being pushed out is a wake up.

So I just hope that the makers here don’t totally do that because as you well know, things come in waves. Absolutely. And those palates will change. And so all those folks who are- … loving fruit ciders now- Yeah … will- Grow up one day. Will grow up. Their palate will be like, “Oh, I really want something- Yeah

with a, a bit of bitter.” And you have to forecast that. How do you plan that for your market? How do you do that? I suppose we don’t. The truth is, if you’re never in fashion, you’re never out of [00:30:00] fashion. That’s what I tell everybody about my dress code, so I hope it works with cider as well. Basically, you stick to your guns, you stay with what you do, what you know- Yeah

what you- Right … and like you say, it will go full circle. You just gotta live a long enough to see it. Yeah. But, uh- This is true. That’s a good attitude. That’s a good attitude. But, um, but it will. Right’s right and wrong’s wrong in my view, and it’ll always come back there somewhere, somehow. Right. Now, h- has your cider-making, how ha- has your technique evolved in this time?

Because you’ve, you are, have expanded, right? But are you making cider the same way you always have or have you dialed it in a bit more? We certainly have, still make some of our cider the way we do. Like I say, we’re a traditionalist and we like to make things like Kingston Black, Foxweller, all the old dry- Single varietal ciders

single varieties. Yeah. And we, we like to keep them on track, and that’s what we do. And when someone lectures me, which I get a lot of lecturing off some of the old boys at the shows, and I’ll say, “The reason you’re [00:31:00] still able to drink that pint you’re drinking now is ’cause we make this other stuff, which affords us to come and sell this to you, basically.”

I think what, when I set out to make cider, and I still hold to that principle now, you, we try and make cider exactly the same ’cause we, we’re using fruit or apples that’s been there 50, 60, 70… We still make cider the way it was made in the method as we- Bring the apples in, we crush them, we press them, we extract the juice.

We naturally ferment them. We don’t use- All- all natural ferment … we use no yeast. Okay. I, I, at one point we were the largest natural fermenting cider company in England because a lot of people do use cul- and there’s nothing wrong with using cultured yeast, but if you’ve got the traditional real cider apples, my argument is, yes, they can go off on tangents and you can lose a little bit of control of them, but hey, that’s what, you know

that’s life, isn’t it? Right. But, but I think if you’ve got all those lovely [00:32:00] flavors and you’re gonna hammer them with a cultured yeast and make them all taste the same, it’s a bit pointless in a way. So we don’t use any cultured yeast on any of our cider-making at all. Mm-hmm. I know it’s easier with real cider apples than what it is dessert apples to achieve that.

Sure. But, but my thing is I wanna make cider the same way it was made 100 years ago. But you have got to just accept you want it palatable and sellable to the people- For the market … the market- The market … and the people are drinking it You gotta be, you gotta be aware of that. Yeah. So le- let’s, ’cause I know that there’s people listening right now who wanna geek out a little bit on your equipment.

Yeah. So let’s bring them through that. What do you use as like a, a scratcher or the, the mash? We use a mill and a belt press now. Okay. And obviously that’s for the main reason of- Yeah … time and quantities. Yeah. We’ve still got all the old Victorian cider-making kit, yeah. On holidays we get it out and have a go, but obviously when we’re in [00:33:00] full pressing season, we use it.

But that, that doesn’t really change the taste of the cider- No … one way or the other four. At all. Are you doing barrel ferment? We- we do oak. Yeah. We do stainless. We… The, the single variety, the premium stuff, we still use oak for. Okay. The lighter stuff, the more sort of pub trade cider- Yeah … the 4.5% stuff, the blended stuff, we ferment in stainless because- It would create a taste they don’t want and you don’t want and so basically we cover all grounds.

We still make the very traditional proper cider. Everything’s from 100% fruit, so you know, i- i- it’s all natural yeast, 100% fruit. So even the more commercial in tasting stuff, we might back sweeten. A little bit, yep. It’s still 100% cider. The fruit cider is, again, we use real fruit. We- What are you back sweetening with?

Just normal cane sugar. Oh, yeah. We don’t use any saccharines or sweeteners- Yeah, yeah, yeah … or, you know, again, if you’re gonna use sugar, use the proper stuff, basically. And what kind of ABV, alcohol by volume, are you… Do you bring that [00:34:00] into your plan to try to hit a certain- We- … golden mark? Some of the stuff, like I say, is 4.5, 5% cider.

Yeah. Some of the stuff is 6 to 8% cider, so. That’s about the top- Yeah … 8%. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So we, the one thing I think of as revolution cider making is the bagging boxes, the bibs as they call the… Because always before you would put it in a five gallon plastic barrel. It’s great if it’s drank quite quick, no problem.

The trouble is you’d sell it to a pub, and the first week they’d all drink, drink, and there’d be, like, one gallon left in there. It’d sit by the fire on the bar in some pub in the winter and deteriorate. And then they’d either say, “Oh, I ain’t drinking any of that old stuff again,” or they’d ring up and complain about it or blah, blah, blah.

But with the bagging box form, it’s found a way of holding cider, ’cause obviously the, the bag collapses around the product to stop the air going in, bit like a wine box. [00:35:00] And basically that cider’s good for- three or four months really in a bag-in-box from- That’s amazing … when you put it. And it’s good for us because we know it goes out safe.

Yeah. We can stack it on a pallet. I can ship them anywhere around the UK. It’s good for the traders because they can buy a pallet and know safely they’ve got time to sell it. It’s good for the landlord because it’s not gonna go off. It’s good for people that buy it for their own home because they can stick it in their fridge.

They’ve got a little tap in it. I would love that. I wish I could bring one back. And the other thing is, I suppose there’s three ways really to preserve cider. You either put lots of chemicals in it, which we don’t wanna go down that road. Mm-hmm. You either filter the life out of it, which is fine, but it does take- You lose something from filtering, yeah

and putting it in a bag-in-box or in a bottle, we’ve got a flash pasteurizer system. While it literally runs through the system, flashes it, and it’s safe. The old way of [00:36:00] bottle or tank pasteurize where you actually boil the cider up and all that, obviously it come out and tastes like apple pie, basically.

This way it changes the taste to nine out of 10 people, they wouldn’t even be able to tell- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm … the taste has changed. And I think it has completely turned the job on its head because there’s nothing worse… Like cider had got a, um, especially scrumpy or rough cider, had got a, a name where people were almost fearful of it.

This way you can know your product’s gonna keep and- And be shelf stable, as they say. Yeah. Yeah, which is critical a- as a businessperson. Without changing the taste of it- Yeah … I believe as well. Yeah, absolutely important. So your cider does get farmed out to a number of locations as bag-in-box and also bottles too.

How far out from the West Country here can people access it? Is it going further to the east or…? Like I said before, we do a lot of shows. We cover up as far as Yorkshire- Right … and as far as south. So anywhere we go, we obviously publicize [00:37:00] it, give out leaflets- Mm-hmm … about it. So anywhere in Main- we send quite a lot of cider to Scotland.

Anywhere in mainland Britain, basically bag-in-box is, can be shipped anywhere. We send a little bit of cider to Italy, Lithuania. We have sent to the States before now, so but that’s quite a niche little market. Yeah. That’s great. I’m glad to hear about Lithuania- … which is becoming more and more of a cider country.

Mm. So we’re real- really excited about that. Now, this is a lot of work to be able to manage all this and all the going out to all the events. But you are the person who’s going out to the events, aren’t you? People are gonna be meeting the maker. Yeah. No, obviously I can’t cover all of them. Right. I, I think other than- About four weekends.

Between now and Christmas, every weekend I’m at a show somewhere. Yeah. Um, and that’s only because we’ve got events on or different things at the farm, really. Um- That’s amazing. I’m kinda wondering in, in that span of time, what do you wish you knew [00:38:00] then that you know now? It might be a couple things, too.

Yeah. No, that’s a fair question, that one. Yeah. I, I suppose

Making cider for hobby and fun i- i- is a wonderful thing, but I think when people get into it as a business form- Yeah … there are lots of pitfalls and lots of, you know, you- you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta be aware of your pricing structure, you’ve gotta be aware of your ingredients, you’ve gotta be aware.

Business is tough, don’t matter what business you’re in. But- Mm-hmm … when you’re doing something you’re quite passionate about as well, it’s not like clocking into work and doing your business and coming home, because living on a farm like we do- You’re right on site. Yeah. People go right by your home.

Yeah. You’re right in the middle of it. We ne- we never close for a day or anything. We’re open- Yeah … all the time, so even Christmas Day we get people knock on the door and- Wow. Yeah. And it’s good and it’s bad, but- Yeah … but it’s, i- [00:39:00] it’s like farming really. It’s a way of life. There you go. You know, it’s… If you want the other way of life, you’re wasting your time.

I’m not sorry at all about the, it happened by chance, as I said to you, but I, you know- Yeah … chance sometimes a great thing, and I’ve met some lovely people through cider making. It’s a very sociable thing. It’s, it’s a bit like farming really. It’s, you’re working stuff from the land. It’s… I’m not a very technical guy in any way or form.

I’m, like I say, I live in the past. I’m a historian, not a future sort of person. I, we have to embrace all the technology that comes along, but I’m quite happy with, with the world I know. It seems like you are in your kinda sweet spot. Is this where you kinda see Gwatkins to be holding steady, or do you have that kinda five or 10-year plan at this point?

No, not really. I, I’d like to do it for the rest of my working life. You know- Yeah … I can’t see myself doing anything else really. I, I like to do other things as well perhaps, but I’ve been [00:40:00] told off for that. Other than my brother, that’s it. No more. ‘Cause I, I’m terrible for, like I say, the next thing and- Okay

why don’t we just, why don’t we… You can spread yourself too thin, I have to admit that, and, uh- It’s true. Yeah … I’m the sort of person, I suppose, I’ve, I’ve never been on holiday in my life. I work 365 days a year. I enjoy what I do. I, you know, I- So you’re maybe always on holiday as that kind of work-life balance.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It must be part of your personality, Denis. I’m, you feel like you’re- Just a little bit I know about you. You have a deep well, as they would say. A deep well in terms of strength and tenacity to keep on going, and would I be right in saying that you’re, this is how I consider myself, that my pendulum swings towards happiness.

I’m not one to stay- No … in the doldrums. I can’t, you know- That goes a long way to keeping you rock steady. Keeping me steady. Yeah. It’s, you know- Yeah … it’s, they all laugh at me because I suppose years ago there was two people really. There was a- Whatever your [00:41:00] religious views are. There was, like, the vicar and there was the pub landlord.

A- and everybody in the village went to one with their troubles if you were relig- But the amount of people that comes to see old Dan, as they say, with their problem are sometimes- Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. But yeah, I’m, I’m normally quite steady. I don’t, you know- Yeah … I don’t, not too many things rile me and I just, as I keep saying, the key to sanity is acceptance.

You get on with what you do, you live your life and you enjoy it, make people happy and you’re happy and that’s it, isn’t it? Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, I love hearing that because we need more of that in the world and more people like you. Yeah. Let’s just go back to s- the cider just a little bit, just to give folks the length of different products that you have.

Can we kinda go down the- Yeah … the list of ciders available, and then just talk a little bit about the perries? Yeah. So we know you have the single varietals. Yeah. We do Kingston Black, Foxwelle, Yarlington Mill, Norman. We do a Stoke Red. Those are the main single varieties we do. [00:42:00] Mm-hmm. Then we do probably 10 blends of cider, which are all mixed from those really, or, and other types.

Yeah. We’ve got our original. We’ve got a, one we, cloudy. We’ve got, we’ve got some ones, we’ve got one called Silly You, No Bull and Squeal Pig. They’re our farm range. And, yeah, so s- they vary. And I think it works because pubs want a different cider than perhaps the people that are a, a food festival and- They’re looking for something new.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, to try. So that’s the cider. How about the, the perry? Perry, I think, is a very special thing. I think it goes back to my time when me uncle, I have very fond memories of working with him in, in, in perry pear orchards. And he was the type of old chappy- He’d go and catch himself a salmon at the river, and then he’d go and pick a few pears.

He was never troubled by too much in life. He, a pretty humble man. Never wanted to- What, what was his name? Brian Browning Brian [00:43:00] Browning. He, he was, he was a bit of an old character, tell you a few old yarns and that. Yeah. And but his knowledge of perry pears, he had about 40-something varieties on his farm down there.

And the, I suppose the gift he gave me, if I say there’s one thing, he used to say to me, “These trees are here for a reason, boy. It’s because they’re some use to somebody.” Nowadays, everybody wants to plant this, they wanna plant that, they want… Which is fine, but if you replant an orchard, you should look at what you’ve got there because if they were.

H- 100, 200 years ago they didn’t have soil tests. They couldn’t go away. If they planted a tree, it didn’t work, they, they were a long time without any perry, basically. And, uh, and he was very clever at grafting them and all the rest of it. And he also had a skill, and this is the skill I think I take on board the most.

He would pick an apple off a tree. He would bite it, and he’d get me to bite it, and he would say, “Now you should be able to taste that apple and know what sort of cider that’s gonna make. Close your [00:44:00] eyes and think.” And it’s true because- That’s a good skill … some of them are full sharp, some of them are bittersweet, some of them got tannin, some are…

And he’d say, “That one needs something,” and he’d bite one, and he’d say, “That goes with that.” And it, uh, like I say, he was a very simple but clever man. And perry pears especially. Pe- perry’s quite a, I think it’s a treasure. I really, I think it’s an underrated drink. I think it’s, it is actually the true drink of Britain because most all cider apples were imported from France- Yeah

at one time or another. We gone… But the perry pears have been here forever, and I think because of- the difficulty from start to finish with them. They take 20 years before they crop properly. When they do crop, they rot very quick on the trees, so you haven’t got time to pick them, store them, take them in a trailer somewhere.

You’ve got to almost produce straight away. They’re a lot more of a problem to ferment. When you make cider obviously you want to clean your [00:45:00] vessels well and all that, but if there’s any bacteria with perry, ’cause they haven’t got the acidity of the cider, they haven’t got the, like shield round them to protect them, they, it can go off a lot easier.

It’s a lot more difficult to make perry, and I think that’s probably why perry’s not as popular as cider because I can’t see any other reason. It’s a lovely drink. Yeah. But there’s just so many milestones you’ve got to get to make a gallon of perry compared to cider. I just think, I’ve been hit for saying this before, but I always say they’re fairer of the sex of the two.

They’re a lot more problem, but they’re well worth doing. There you go. So don’t hit me. But yeah, uh, they, they are, I think they’re a treasure. They’re a jewel in the crown really. They really are. They really are. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it, it takes a, a little bit of braveness and stubbornness to kinda work with them because they are- Difficult

I like to call them persnickety. Yeah, yeah. They could go a lot of different directions- Yeah … and you gotta [00:46:00] be on your game to deal with it. Definitely. And I think that’s why they were never commercially grown- Yeah … and produced. Yeah. And, and the only time, you read your history books, the only time perry ever really grew popular and was in all the London public houses and all that was when we were at war with France, and I’m not suggesting we go to war, but obviously- Right

when there was blockades on French wine and all that- Yeah … everybody reverted to drinking perry. This is true, yeah. And then as soon as it all got well again, they all went back to drinking wine. And sa- and I, but I think again because it’s only really the three counties that grow perries, you know, i- if cider apples failed in Hereford you could probably get them somewhere else.

But with, if it fails there, it’s gonna fail all around. And I think it’s very sad the amount of people that actually live in surrounding areas is when we do shows and displays, have never tasted perry. They’ve never had the opportunity to [00:47:00] taste perry. They never know what’s in their own backyard. Mm-hmm.

That’s classic, isn’t it? Most definitely. Yeah. So- Do you keep on planting perry pear trees or- Yeah, we plant a few. We planted a f- three years ago we done the last plant. But yeah, we keep- Wow … you plant pears where you are as they say, don’t they? Right. But, because they are … It’s 50 years really on the old standard trees before they reach full crop, don’t they?

Can you give listeners an idea of the acreage of your orchards? We’ve got about 24 acres. 24 acres. Yeah. And is that, does that fit your needs, or are you- No, we do- You need to bring it in locally? Yeah. Yeah. That’s about a third of our needs we- Yeah. But again, we’re quite lucky really in the fact that every farm in this valley has got a little cider orchard historically- Yeah

from when cider was made on the farm. And I think the big factory in Hereford has moved to Ledbury now. So for all the old boys that’s got two ton in the back of a trailer, their trailer mightn’t make the journey, or it’s not worth them- Going that [00:48:00] far. Yeah. So- Yeah … we’re quite lucky. We can- Yeah, pull it here

pull it, yeah. And those are the ones we’re looking for, ’cause most of those aren’t modern planted orchards. They’re old historical farmstead orchards that’s been there for evermore. Yeah. So we’re picking up the nice old varieties out of there and- Wow, fantastic. You’re wearing many hats here- … and providing a lot of people with an amazing experience on multiple lay- layers, whether it’s at the events or just coming here to the cider mill, and the tasting room, the restaurant, the caravan.

It’s just, it’s kind of a amusement park for perry fans- … and cider fans, and good, a lot of good cheer I imagine. It is. It is lovely. It’s lovely for people to be passionate and enthusiastic about pe- things. And it’s, it, y- y- your best customer is your repeating customer. True. Because you’ve, hopefully you’re doing something right.

I like to consider myself a repeating cu- customer. I wanna encourage listeners out there to come and visit, and to seek out Gwatkins Cider. [00:49:00] And I wanna thank you, Denis, for taking the time today to, to speak with me and everybody out there. No, thank you, and keep drinking cider. Hey, cheers.

What has stayed with me from this conversation with Denis is how much he enjoys the life he built. The farm, the cider, the people who stop by, it’s all connected. And while tastes change and the business grows, that attachment to home runs right through it. Yep, all roads lead back to cider indeed. Now, if you’re thinking you’d like to pull up a chair at Gwatkins Cider Mill yourself, I’m considering that UK Totally Cider tour for August 2027.

Send a note to info@ciderchat.com and get your name on the Totally Cider tours list. You’ll hear more as the plans come together. And to keep up with Cider Chat each week, subscribe to eCider News for cider stories, the latest podcast episodes, events, and tour updates. You’ll find the signup link in the [00:50:00] show notes to episode518@ciderchat.com.

And with that, I leave you here. This is Ria Windcaller signing out for now. Looking forward to seeing you in Ciderville. Strange apples. Bitter sharp

Strange apples, juicy and ripe

Bomb I want a tannin bomb Who wants to pull them down? I’m gonna pull them down. Hey, hey, hey

Bittersweet[00:51:00]

Hanging high Them strange apples. Forget the pies

Tannin bomb I want a tannin bomb Who wants to pull them down? I’m gonna pull them down. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, apples [00:52:00] Come and see plenty strange

Ba da, doo doo da, bop, bop, bop

Yeehaw!