519: Charles Martell | Stinking Bishop, Perry Pears & Luck

00:00 Charles Martell on Quality of Life
00:30 Welcome to Cider Chat
02:05 Out and About in Ciderville
02:57 Filming Chronicle at New Salem’s Museum Orchard
07:13 Totally Cider Tours and a France Preview
07:54 Arriving at Hunts Court
08:56 How Charles Became a Farmer
10:16 Saving Rare Perry Pears
13:54 Small Farm, Low Volume, High Value
16:22 Books and Lost Fruit Varieties
21:55 The Curious Names of Perry Pears
23:48 Perry Versus Cider
25:37 Saving Rare Gloucester Cattle
30:12 Discovering the Farm’s Distilling History
32:23 A Wood-Fired Copper Still
34:52 The Historic Distilling House
35:50 A Look Around the Courtyard
37:36 Tracing the Distilling House’s Origins
38:12 Building the German-Made Still
39:38 The Stories Behind the Spirits’ Names
40:30 Tasting Poireau
42:17 Pommeau and Barrel Aging
44:45 May Hill and the Surrounding Landscape
46:53 Stinking Bishop and Wallace and Gromit
49:07 Single and Double Gloucester Cheese
50:58 Cheese Pairings, Rinds, and Bacteria
57:20 Hulla Baloo Blue Cheese
58:36 A Turning Point for Perry
59:57 Growing Perry Pear Trees
01:02:59 Where to Buy and How to Visit
01:04:10 Final Reflections and Farewell

Your life has evolved in a way where you fell into it or you saw a moment and said, “I’m gonna go there.” Is there- You got it. That last one. . It’s just a dream. Make them come true. And I, I’m not really driven by money, but I’m driven by the fact that it’s there and we should be exploiting it and bringing the cows out and showing people them and loving them and enjoying life really.

It’s the quality of life as well. Hello, my name is Ria Windcaller and I am the producer and cider emcee of this weekly podcast where we speak with makers, cider enthusiasts and folks within the cider trade from around the world. Hip hip hooray.

Bringing us into episode 519 of Cider Chat was Charles Martell. I had a sit-down conversation with Charles at his farm in Gloucestershire, England for this [00:01:00] conversation. You may know him as the maker of Stinking Bishop, which is a cheese made famous by an animated movie about Wallace and Gromit. Now, Wallace is a cheese-loving inventor, and Gromit is his clever dog.

And in that whole movie, they had this cheese, Stinking Bishop, which is all due to Charles Martell naming his cheese by that name, which actually is reference to a perry pear by the same name, Stinking Bishop, or it’s also known as Moorcroft. This is just the whimsical names of pears, and specifically perry pears.

But that is only one part of Charles Martell’s story. He’s responsible for rescuing from extinction a rare breed of cattle. He’s an author of two pear books, and so much more. He’s also a distiller. We’re gonna be talking all [00:02:00] about it in this episode. So do stay tuned for that. It’ll be coming up straight away.

But first, I have a wee bit of news from out and about in Ciderville. Last week, I stepped onto the other side of the microphone for a television story about cider. I was contacted by The Chronicle, which is, from what I understand, the longest-running news program in the US, and I think it’s a magazine news program.

And because I couldn’t help myself, my first question to the producer was, “Why cider?” And, you know, she said her husband likes cider, which is a plus. But it’s also the fall, so you know, we kinda played into that, and I kept on, like, bringing it in that it’s a year-round thing. But you know what? If she is only thinking about cider in the fall, I’m not gonna judge her.

That’s okay. There is no have to when it comes to cider. It’s all about fun. Now, they originally wanted to [00:03:00] come to Cider Chat Central to see me in my podcasting closet. But I had another place in mind, and that was the museum orchard at New Salem Cider in Massachusetts, and longtime listeners out there will remember Carol B.

Hillman who brought that orchard back to life at her colonial homestead, and there is an episode with Carol. I will have a link in the show notes. In fact, episode two of Cider Chat way back in 2015 was with Carol’s partner, Robert, talking about building the cider house there. So yeah, you know it. I’ve been there for a long time.

I taught cider making at New Salem for about 17 years or so, and just fell hard, hard, hard, hard for that orchard, which has these delightful apple pretzels, where you weave in the water sprouts or the suckers as we know them. On any fruit tree you could do this, and just weave it around into a pretzel shape, and it grows in [00:04:00] that shape and expands and becomes this lovely handhold in the middle of the tree.

It can be used to stabilize old branches connecting to the upper branch and lower branch or vice versa. It looks whimsical, which is always a nice addition in any orchard, and it also provides this cluster. It starts fruiting around the pretzel itself, and we know that there’s a lot of little bugs that apple trees have.

I think I heard at one point, like, 1,000 different insects on one apple tree, which is mind-boggling in and of itself. And yeah, more blossoms there. So apple pretzels are cool. But that’s only one part of the story. The bigger story was when I finally got them to go down into the orchard- I remember the moment where as soon as we stepped past that gate, past the stone wall, and into these rows that were expansive, ’cause these are all standard apple trees, so they’re [00:05:00] big and they’re large, and there’s a lot of space in between them, and there was just an immediate feeling of, “Ah.”

And the first thing that Kendall, who’s a producer of the show, said was, “This orchard is really different.” And I’m just kinda nodding my head and smiling, and I’m sure those of you out there who, who have had similar experiences, when you bring somebody into this wild scene of an orchard n- something like this.

This is certainly a museum-class orchard like none other that I know in the world, honestly. It was transformative, uh, for both Kendall and Rich, the cameraman. I think they were expecting to just do a couple shots, but we hung out there for a while, and were just walking around, checking out each and every tree, ’cause each one was so uniquely pruned and cared for.

There’s a big one that is all hollow in the inside. Another orchard may just chop down that tree and say, “Oh, [00:06:00] that’s, like, getting old and worn out. Let’s plant a new one there.” Not at New Salem. Carol would never do that. She keeps those trees going, had all these entwined apple pretzels going through the holes.

And the cameraman, he was just focused on it, and re- really, honestly, wowed. I, I, I tell you that, I think that was my favorite part of the day, was to see two folks who never experienced this orchard experiencing it for the first time. It is unforgettable. Uh, it was for me, and I’m sure it is for them. And the cool thing about this was, by suggesting that we film there, that opened the door to include New Salem’s story.

So it was such a pleasure connecting those dots and sharing a little of this cider world with a new audience, and that’s the potential I’m really excited for the industry overall. The story is expected to air the week before Thanksgiving, and from what I understand, it’ll be having additional airings, so there should be more than one chance to catch it.

The Chronicle also [00:07:00] has a YouTube channel, which means that those of you who are outside this area of Boston, New England, et cetera, will still be able to watch, and certainly we’ll be sharing the link when it’s available. Also coming up in November on the 14th, I’m gonna be at Cider Feast Boston with my recorder, and this time you could be the one on the microphone.

I’ll be bringing a little list of questions to help get the conversation started, so you don’t need to prepare a speech. Just come, say hello if you see me, tell me what’s in your glass, and let’s have a cider chat. Now, if listening to these conversations makes you want to visit the orchards and meet the makers yourself, let’s talk Totally Cider Tours.

We’re looking ahead to France for blossom time in April 2027 and the United Kingdom next August. To join the no-obligation wait list for either tour, send me an email at info@ciderchat.com. Up next is our feature presentation with Charles Martell. I had been hoping to [00:08:00] speak with Charles for a long time, and this April, the timing finally came together.

His wife, Alexandra, first greeted me as I pulled into the drive, and then Charles and I settled into the courtyard in front of their home. It was a sunny day in England with birds singing all around us. You’re gonna be hearing them throughout our conversation. From where I sat, I had a wonderful view of May Hill.

Local legend says that perry pear trees grow best within sight of that hill, and just the day before, I’d climbed it myself for the first time. And there’s something about that landscape that feels familiar to my spirit. Being an apple and pear fan certainly helps, but I think you’d feel it regardless.

It was one of those days when I thought, “Damn, cider sure does take you places.” So now, let’s join Charles Martell at Hunts Court.

You’ve been described as a farmer, an author, a [00:09:00] conservationist … a distiller Yeah, a, god, cattleman how do you describe yourself?

I’m a farmer, and if you’d dropped me somewhere else, I’d have looked around at what’s local, what’s specialty for that area, and taken an interest in it, and tried to make a quid out of it. So I come here. We’ve got a native breed of cattle, which are a cheese-making breed, the Old Gloucester cow. So we have them.

We make cheese. This is also happened to be in the middle of the perry pear area for Britain. So I got interested in the pears, and we make perry. We don’t sell perry, we distill it. And that’s me. I just do the best I can with my life. Did you grow up in a farm family? There’s a branch of my family, they’re not farmers, they’re estate holders, have huge tracts of land in the east of, in the south of England.

But my name wasn’t on the list for that, so I had to buy my own little farm. . And I’m very happy and proud to have done that. Is that where we are right now? Where we are now, yeah. So that was how many years ago did that- [00:10:00] 1972. 1972. I was young and good-looking. And then look what happened.

I think you’re still good-looking, and, not to be ageist, it’s, Yeah. … Life, I think life has treated you quite kindly- Yeah … is the right thing to say. It’s been wonderful. Been wonderful. Yeah. you didn’t grow up in necessarily in a farming family, but what drew you to perry?

And- Because it was here. I’d come to work in Gloucestershire, but I come from the south of England on the coast. , My mother did have, had two or three cows and ducks and chickens and pigs, so I did grow up in that environment, small scale farming. And now I’ve forgotten the question.

What drew you to perry? It, you said- … it was here. Yes. Was it abundant at that point? Were people in on making perry and- No. No. They lost interest in it. But I, to make a living, I used to drive a lorry. You’d call a… What do you call a lorry? A tractor-trailer truck we would say- Okay

in the US, but I- … a lorry’s quite large. No, it’s quite large. That’s what I drove carrying livestock around, and I used to go around the farms, [00:11:00] and I’d see these great big pear trees, and I said, “Whatever are those trees?” “Oh,” they said, “that’s a perry pear.” I said what’s that?” “Especially for making perry.”

Anyway, six months later I go back to the farm on another errand and the tree was gone. I said, “Where’s your tree gone? Where’s your perry pear…?” “Oh, it blew down in the wind.” I said, “And you’ve planted some more?” “No. Why would we plant them?” B- ’cause they didn’t, they’d forgotten how to make perry. There was very little made.

Very little made.

. And I, it roused my curiosity, and I decided to find out as much as I could about them. There’d been a book written in the 1960s listing these Perry pears, and I thought we ought to really start a national collection to save them from becoming extinct.” A reference collection. So I went round and looked for all the varieties and propagated them and started a collection near here.

There’s now two other duplicate collections, so the trees are fairly safe. About 100 varieties there are, just only found in this area. Nobody knows why they’re only found here. And there’s a hill you can see in a minute [00:12:00] over there- Yep … called May Hill, and the old legend is Perry pear trees only thrive within sight of that hill.

It’s true, but nobody can explain why. It’s not the soil- … ’cause the soil varies. It’s just a fact. Yeah. So anyway, it’s on, on, on us to blooming well stop these things going extinct and to use them. First thing is to save them, and then it’s to encourage people to use them. So we’re doing our bit. We’re making Perry and we’re distilling it.

We don’t sell Perry, we sell the spirit from Perry, and we can see some bottles in front of us here. There’s one called Poirot- … there, and also Naked Lady, which is another pear spirit. Was that the defining moment with that particular pear tree that said, “We have to do something”?

Yeah. Yeah. Were you s- seeing no one in this area making Perry? There was the big industrial Perry makers not so far away from here. They were still making it, but rapidly losing interest because nobody knew what’s Perry? That’s the first question. Oh, it’s pear cider. [00:13:00] So there was a big company in Somerset called Showerings who were making a drink called Babycham, which was very famous after the Second World War.

Again, things were catching up. They planted 50,000 Perry pear trees there, which weren’t thriving. And eventually I think that sort of fizzled out completely. And then- 50,000 Perry pear trees? Wow. It was a… I think it was 50,000. I’m sure it was. Wow. And they all died except for a few. And and then with the interest in f- in the varieties, the lovely names they’ve got it started a sort of grassroots interest in them and the small makers like Tom Oliver and people like that started making Perry and people became interested in the sort of s- full cycle.

And we’re back again at this where people are interested and want to know about it and- Want to save the pears, but really it’s the drink. Is that’s the selling point. I’m curious, perry pears at that point were you trying your hand at fermenting and…[00:14:00]

Or was it just the affection for the tree itself? We were making a bit. Okay. But we weren’t really very organized. I had no money. The place was all tumbled down here. But when we did get enough it and made it we consciously didn’t sell perry. My philosophy is like I’ve got a Gloucester cow, so we’ve never sold milk.

We do something with it on the farm. ‘Cause we’re small- Yeah … we’ve got to take it to the next stage. So we have perry, we wash our cheese in it, more of that later perhaps. Yes. And and we distill it. So instead of selling perry, gallons and gallons it’s reduced the volume of what we sell.

Low volume, high value, that’s been my philosophy. Low volume, high value. But, but- that’s a good way to go … be- because we’re small- … we’re forced to do that, and it’s sensible and it works for us. The birds are just absolutely beautiful, and I know that- Blackbird, aren’t they lovely?

Bl- a blackbird, yeah. It’s singing for us right now. This area, do you think it might have to do something with the soil type here that the perry- No … nothing, No. The, every sort, there’s so many different soil types. We’ve got heavy land here. [00:15:00] Just go 100 yards down there, you’re on sand.

And then you go to the Cotswolds, you’re on the, on, on the vale you’ve got calcium soil And so it’s not everybody suggests it’s sus- but it’s not. Some trees grow by the river, some grow on top of hills, and there’s, it’s a mystery. It’s not just cultural.

The trees don’t want to thrive outside of Hereford Mayhill. Maybe they’re stubborn, like me. Nothing wrong with that. Do you see climate change impacting the perry trees at this point? Gosh. Is it having an impact? It’s an interesting one because every pear has different characteristics.

Some of them flower early, some late. Some fruit early, some fruit late. And the reason we have so many pears is because the weather can vary, and one tr- one year one variety will thrive, the next year another one variety thrives. And with the change in climate, I’m sure some trees will be suited to that and others won’t.

So I don’t panic too much. Okay. They’ve [00:16:00] been around a long time. Yeah. And I don’t think they’re that sensitive. In fact, they’re hardier than apples, I think. They’ll withstand drought and extreme rain. Yeah. Okay that’s good. But time will tell, right? So- Time will tell.

Yeah, that’s- But we’re gonna do our bit now. Save the varieties. Get people using them, and then obviously I’ll pop off this coil and somebody else will have to carry on. Let’s talk a little bit about your books. You have three different books that you’ve written, and the first one is on The Pears of Gloucestershire and the Three Counties.

And that came out in 2013. Did it? Then The Nature or Native Apples of Gloucestershire, that’s 2014. Yeah. And then Native Plums: Prunus of Gloucestershire, 2018. Yeah. My goodness that’s quite a bit of documentation and writing it’s- Yes, it wasn’t done in five minutes. I’ve been doing it for 30 years.

That, that works. So- Yeah … and it’s been fun, and I miss it. I miss- Gathering up the information, talking to [00:17:00] the old people, listening to what they have to say- Yeah … and writing it down. Right Even if it’s rather just amusing, not scientific. I’m not a boffin. Having said that, I have given a botanical description of each variety.

I’ve done a line drawing and a photograph, so it’s as much information as I get. I- were there particular pears that you were seeing disappearing at the time? They had disappeared. Most- They had disappeared already for- Most of them had disappeared, and I went round the farms looking for them.

Okay. And maddeningly, the last variety I’d found, which I was looking for, was our local one, the Dymock Red from this village. Yes. And I couldn’t find the blasted thing. I thought, “What the hell am I gonna do? We can’t not have that in the book.” So I said I’m gonna get in my car, and I’m not coming home until I’ve found it.”

And in fact, I did, but it took me two weeks solidly. I went to the farm where the last known tree w- existed. Oh. And I went round in increasing circles, and blow me, I found one. One, one Dymock Red pear tree. Oof. And the farmer was there with his walking stick, and I [00:18:00] could see the fruit right up high on the top of the tree, ’cause you need the fruit to identify.

I borrowed his walking stick, threw it up in the tree to knock some pears down. And of course, the walking stick got hooked up in the tree, didn’t it? It’s probably still there now. Anyway, eventually, we got some pears down, and I identified them from the description we already had. And also I consulted Ray Williams, who’d done the research before me, and he confirmed it is the Dymock Red.

That was a thrilling day for me, ’cause this village has got its own plum, Dymock Red Plum, Dymock Red Pear, and a Dymock Red Apple. And those are in the front s- front piece of each book- … painting. So that was, yeah, that was fun. That, that’s a, a- It made it fun … a very special day And that, that one tree, Dymock Red Tree that’s left, is now dead, gone.

So we saved it just in time, and I’ve got a dozen perry Dymock Red Pears growing here. Fantastic. And funnily enough, we make perry out of it, and we distill it, and it’s very good. And I don’t understand why it’s different to other perry pears. Huh. When we distill it. They vary. How oh, in what kind of way?

We had a chap here once. [00:19:00] He’s a, a well-known, personality, television personality. He said, “God,” he said, “I could bathe my wife in that.” And then we had another one- Huh … and it was almost unpleasant. Huh. It’s nothing to do with the way we distill it, it’s just, again, a mystery. And somebody’ll come after me and will explain why that it’s like this.

‘Cause when you distill it comes out in 90% alcohol, so the flavor has to d- concentrated in 10% of what comes off the still. Yeah. And yet it was, you could see the diff- you feel, taste the difference, and I don’t understand it. I love the magic of the pomme fruits. They’re just- Yeah

They lend themselves to- Yeah … for the human consciousness to always want to make reason out of rhyme, and then there’s always a little bit of mystique, Yeah … that’s the beauty of life. Yes, I agree. Lovely. What was your challenge in doing the documentation here? Because at that time there was no DNA- No

testing. Now we’re seeing that. That’s a really good question. Yeah. It’s quite simply this: I was going around [00:20:00] looking for varieties. The perry pears I knew what varieties I was looking for. The apples, a hell of a lot. They’ve got 200 varieties of Gloucestershire apple. I like, found 100.

I find a variety, I describe it and say this is called yeah. Why should anybody believe me? You have to document it and justify it. So my name’s on the book cover, but actually all the information I got from the old people. And people can attack it and they can say, “Here we are. Look who,” reference who first wrote about this?”

That’s a bad one to choose. Ray Williams, a long-standing researcher, has spent some time researching and collecting fruit for perry making at the Hawthorn’s Chase End. That’s my raison d’être. I don’t say it. People say it, and I write it down. I record it. Yeah. But you have to do that.

If I hadn’t done that, people would say how do you know that’s a s- such a perry pear?” And quite rightly, they challenge me. They challenge me, now there it is in the book. Mr. Said, told me in such and such a year this was this variety. And take it or leave it then. [00:21:00] We- that’s the best information we’ve got.

You certainly have a foundation for future researchers to follow by. Exactly. And- Exactly … you have to have a starting point. What a treasure- Yeah … to have for everyone. I often think of that. In fact, I say at the beginning of my book, “I haven’t spent a lot of time in libraries researching. This is for the next generation.”

And just as you’ve said, they can- Take it from there … take it from there and do what they want. Yeah. Yeah. But the DNA’s interesting, ’cause that has been embarrassing. ‘Cause I happened to have written the book before DNA. And then, of course, particularly the apples, the two varieties I’m thinking of Barkley Pippin and Slack McGirdle, two separate varieties, but they’re one and the same.

Oh. And those experts doing, dealing with it, and I’m not an expert, they were the experts, they didn’t notice. But I was the one who’d written the book- I see … showing those two separate varieties. Wow. So I looked like the idiot. Of course, nobody, the people are forgiving. But yeah. Yeah, come on, you really, again, laid the foundation.

Pear names are so whimsical. Aren’t they? Oh, yeah. [00:22:00] W- I don’t quite get where that comes from. We think of the Harry Potter kind of whimsical names that come out and- … for the rest of the world, that maybe around here that’s more normal. Can you lend a little- insight on that? ‘Cause I’ve always wondered, like, how do these names come- I, I- Like Stinking Bishop or- Stinking- Yeah … i’ll tell you about that in a minute. Yeah. But I think rural people have a very sharp sense of humor. I remember somebody died around here. They were going into the church, and one of the bearers of the coffin collapsed and died.

So the- Oh … so the one of the local wits said Ken Tyler was the man dealing with the, undertaker, dealing with the body, and he said, this old boy said, “Ah, not often Ken Tyler has a return load.” So they’d taken the one corpse into the church and bringing another one back. Oh. And that’s local humor.

Yeah. Very sharp. Yeah. But the Stinking Bishop is a variety of pear. It grew on a farm belonging to a man called Bishop, who wasn’t very nice man. He ear- earned himself [00:23:00] the nickname the Old Stinking Bishop. And we made a cheese that happened to be very smelly, and I wanted to convey the fact, ’cause some people love smelly cheese and some don’t.

So I wanted to give it a name would make it abundantly clear this cheese smells. So we wash it in perry- There you go … to, to make the rind smell. Yeah. And and so we called it Stinking Bishop. But when I first came here, Miss Bishop of that family lived just in the farm opposite. And still? Not- No, she’s gone now, but the family are around. I’m very friendly with John Bishop, who dines out on his infamy or his ancestor’s infamy. And it’s fun. At the end of the day, it’s fun. It is fun, and that’s, what I try to convey in doing my work, and obviously we need folks like yourself who kind of join in and just take it as part of the British humor, which is fantastic.

Yeah. It’s world renowned in that way. For listeners, how should we think about perry versus cider? Oftentimes cider is in the forefront. Yeah. And I bring tour groups over [00:24:00] here, and what I hear often is, “I didn’t know how magnificent perry is.”

Yeah. So do you have any advice on that in terms of looking at perry or cider as just- Yeah. Quite simply as what I said earlier, that, Perry is restricted to this area. Perry-making is restricted to this area based on May Hill. Nobody knows why, but it is a treasure when you find it. We got some very good perry makers, very careful, clean, studying the subject and producing good perry.

But as you say it’s a surprise. I shall never forget my brother coming up to visit me. He’s, he a bit of a wine buff, he knew all about wine. We sat him in the old cider house, … nearby, and we gave him some of this perry. He said, “God,” he said, “What is this? It’s like the finest white wine.”

It isn’t always good, but it can be very good and impressive. We had it at my eldest daughter’s wedding. One chap was waxing lyrical ’cause he thought it was a- A champagne or- A very fine wine. Okay. And turned the [00:25:00] bottle around. There it was. It was perry. Perry, yeah. And it was nice, but it isn’t always nice.

But depends on the maker. If you make it well- … it’ll tend to be good. I think people are coming into that more and more- … as n- the knowledge base continues to grow, right- Yeah … in the, the maker market, as you will. I often think of perry as champagne. That’s why I was thinking at the, at a wedding, it’s a perfect- Perfect drink

Libation to celebrate- Yeah … that, that new beginning there. Do you have a preference for still perry or sparkling perry? How- Don’t mind. Anyth- anything. If it’s nice, I love it. I love it. Really. Yeah, that’s r- I think that’s right. Yeah. That’s the way to go. Yeah. I wanted to move on and just to talk a, a little bit about your work in heritage agriculture because I think that’s a key piece too that I don’t wanna miss here in, in- Yeah

this conversation. With the Gloucestershire cattle can you first explain to listeners what are they? Because we know there’s different types of breeds. The, so the Old Glouce- sometimes called Old Glouce or Gloucester Cow, was obviously native to this area of [00:26:00] England, which is Gloucestershire.

It’s an old cheese-making breed. But it didn’t excel in meat or beef, so it became out of unfashionable. In 1972 when I started, there were 68 left in the world. Beautiful cows, black head and legs, dark mahogany body, and a white stripe down the back and a white tail. The old cheese-making breed of Gloucestershire.

And I remember from a child having a book with a picture of one of these cows in saying how rare they were and they were an old cheese-making breed. Something went in my head then when I was only eight, and I thought it just intrigued me, this, the mystery. Anyway, I come up here to work and I meet a Gloucester cow, and I’m told there are 68 left in the world.

Wow. I thought, this is me, and I want to be a farmer.” I managed this old place, tumbled down house, barn, and 10 acres. And I changed the name from The Laurels to Laurel Farm and then Hunts Court. But I was a farmer by changing the name … from The Laurels to Laurel Farm. And we managed to get three cows.

The [00:27:00] television heard about what I was doing, ’cause this is 1972. It was a different world then. Yeah. And they said, “We hear you’re gonna make double Gloucester cheese from your Gloucester cows.” I said is it something I said? No, I can’t really. Got no equipment.” “No,” he said. “You’re com- we’re coming down on Thursday and we’re gonna film you making cheese.”

I said, “What?” So we did. Managed to find some old equipment, and we went in an old shed and we made it and they filmed it. And that film has just been re-released by the original producer who happens to live locally, and we’ve had some fun sort of going over it all again. Anyway, and it gave me a kick up the backside and made me get on and

Still took a few years, ’cause we had no money. And we did it eventually. And now full-time cheese making, employing seven people, including myself. And a- again, it’s fun. Yeah. And I love it. That’s a good way to approach life, Yeah … l- follow your bliss, I suppose- Yeah … in one way or the other and make it work one way or the other,

It certainly, it appears that you’ve done quite a good job at that. It’s been enjoyable. [00:28:00] Yeah. Where are the cows now? The numbers have increased to, … Not huge. Okay. Probably 400 in the world. The biggest herd is to someone further up than me to mine. I’ve only got 12 cows- Okay

because we’ve got a small farm. He’s got something like 200, 2 or 300. They’ve always been rare it seems. In the la- in- When people write about them, they’re saying how they’ve always been rare. But they’re not, they won’t disappear I don’t think. Yeah. You gave them- I love them … a fighting, fighting chance.

I have. No doubt. The, having cattle in the, the orchards what are your thoughts on that? It’s perfect. You’re getting two crops, one from the cows underneath, and then one, when we gather the fruit, millet and make we make perry or cider and distill it.

It’s beautiful, inverted commas. It’s what God intended. And I love it that, we’ve got two crops. Yeah. Do you take them out two weeks before you are picking? What’s your cycle there? Yeah, exactly. The obviously different varieties fall at different times. It’s a [00:29:00] bit of a game.

We’ve got hay-making time, so they’re in the orchards when we’re making hay, and then when the hay is made and the, we’re starting to see the fruit developing, then we move them accordingly, but it works all right. We’re not overstocked. That helps. And their milk would be, like very heavy cream, or is that- Not at all, no.

No. It’s very, it’s naturally what we s- homogenized. Which is a dirty word, I know, but it’s the opposite of Jersey cow’s milk, which is very thick- Okay … and doesn’t, when you make cheese, it tends to get lost in the way. So this is the opposite to that. It’s it’s ideally suited to cheese-making, yeah.

That’s a, a good fit there. Seems like your life has evolved in a way where, I don’t know if I want to say opportunities, but maybe they are opportunities, where you fell into it, or you saw a moment and said, “I’m gonna go there.” Is there- You got it. That last one. Okay.

You saw it. It’s a dream. Make them come true. And I, I’m not really [00:30:00] driven by money, but I’m driven by the fact that it’s there and we should be exploiting it and bringing the cows out and showing people them and loving them and enjoying life really. It’s the quality of life as well.

Are you naturally an optimist? Would you consider yourself that? Because that takes a bit of tenacity to keep on going in a world that’s constantly changing and- Yeah … throwing, right hooks, left hooks at you. Yeah. It’s the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow. There’s the ra- rainbow which, which tantalizes you, and you go to the end of the rainbow and there’s the dream come true.

You get the Gloucester cows. This distillery we’re sat by now, that’s an extraordinary story. We lived here 50 years. We didn’t know it was a distillery until we looked through some old documents, which I couldn’t read, but we had a man in the village who could read them. He said- … “That’s a distilling house.”

I said, “What?” He said, “Yes.” Then we had the archeologist came out. He said it was built in 1600, and it was built as a distillery. Wow. And so obviously the equipment wasn’t in there. We replaced the equipment [00:31:00] and reopened it as a distillery 20 years ago. We haven’t found out how to make money out of it yet, but it’s there and we’ll go on with it, and it’s lovely.

Again, it’s fun. It s- it certainly is. I was wondering why you went to distillation versus becoming, someone who produces perry. Of course, you have to produce perry to be able to distill it. Yeah. Yeah. Why the spirits versus the initial- Perry. I didn’t want to make perry and sell it because it, it’s such a large volume.

Oh. We’ve got a small place. We didn’t want- I see … lorries. I don’t know, what do you call lorries? Wagon. A, a tractor- Trucks. Trucks … tractor-trailer actually. Yeah. We didn’t want… Yeah, we just can’t have those great big vehicles, so we, what we do- I see … we distill it, which reduces the volume. The, the liquid goes, the water goes back to, on the land again, and we just keep the spirit, and so high value, low volume. Yeah. That’s us. And, Yeah … it will work eventually what do you mean by that? It’ll take a long time to establish the name and the varieties.

We sell [00:32:00] it online, so people do know about it. Nice people like you come and publicize it for me, and we’ll get there eventually. The good thing about it is you’re not distilling all the time. You’re distilling as and when you need to.

It goes into wooden barrels, and I’m not complaining. It’ll still be being sold when I’ve gone. I think it’s marvelous. You started 20 years ago, so you must have a bit of stock from- Yes, I have … from the ages there. Exactly. I also saw that you have a wood fire pot still. Is that correct?

That’s it. That’s the one in the distillery there, yeah. Okay. And as I’m seeing different distillation projects, in France, which, I’ve been going over there for quite a while, converting to gas. Interesting. A- and I have my thoughts on that and not just the romanticism of the wood fire, ’cause I’ve been at a a distillation where it was a wood fire, and there’s a lot of smoke and stuff, and- Ah

I, I’m kinda curious on your thoughts on that. W- you’re going to remain as a wood fire. Oh, yeah. It was, [00:33:00] it’s, it was what we wanted. We got so much wood here. You can look out there. You’ve got, apart from anything else, you got rotten fence posts. We got a branch come off a tree. It’s fine.

And it’s so cheap. Oh, yes, we wouldn’t go back from anything. The joy of it is there’s a certain skill in using the wood- Yeah … which is good. And no it’s… I’m really proud it’s wood. I think there’s one other that I know of which isn’t being used at the minute, but it suits us.

But if you’re an industrial estate, you probably wouldn’t be allowed to use wood. But we’re in the countryside and nobody minds I wonder what we’re losing as it transitions to gas because being in that room where there is that smokiness and the liquids dripping and- yeah

I feel like we’re gonna lose that essence of that smokiness and what it lends to the, that initial product there. And so I’m just so happy to hear that you’re s- you’re- Yeah … sticking with it. And for all the reasons that make sense because- Exactly … it’s resource you have. You’re not having to bring gas tanks in [00:34:00] here- Yes

And, there, there isn’t any smoke in there really. It just goes up the chimney. We did have a fire in there once. The chimney hadn’t been lagged properly, and the, the roof caught fire. We had seven fire engines queued up there- Oh, no … spraying it, and it was fine. It didn’t do us damage.

Yeah. It’s just it hadn’t been put in quite pr- correctly. And it was, again, it was fun. And, Never a dull moment in the farm. Yeah … but I just, I’m intrigued that I should come to this farm, be doing the work at Gloucester Goes, doing the work with the perry pears and cider fruit, and suddenly there’s a gift for me of a distillery, which I didn’t know about.

And I’m absolutely astounded. I’m not a religious person, but it’s almost as if somebody said, “Charles you’re a nice guy. We’ll give you a distillery.” It’s extraordinary. And here it is, a lovely building, timber framed, right by the house. Yeah. And I can’t believe my luck. I’m a very lucky person.

So 16 what, again? About 1600. 1600. So what? It’s 500 years old. I guess so, [00:35:00] yeah. And it’s there sitting looking at me all these years. I didn’t know it- Was it just empty at that point, or- We kept rubbish in l- you know- You saw no remnants of a distillation? No. And no, no folk memory of it. But there’s a reason for that, because distilleries were closed down by the government in about 1700, 1750.

And a lot of them went underground and became illegal. But the Scots, the Scotch distilleries were allowed to continue because they agreed to pay the duty. Small guys like in here weren’t gonna pay it. There are three distilleries in this parish, which I didn’t know till the other day, and we had our own excise man who collected the money, so it must have been a significant a, a significant occurrence, Right

to go to the trouble of having an excise man to take the money. Anyway, there it is. There’s the building. We’re sitting looking at it, and I absolutely- Yeah … can’t believe my luck. It’s beautiful. I wanna just describe to people listening here. So we’re sitting outside at, in this beautiful courtyard with your home.

I’m looking at little boxes on a wall over there [00:36:00] that have these pigeons. They’re actually for bees. Oh. They’re called bee bowls. Oh. Oh, okay. And you put a wooden put a straw skep in there. Oh. And the bl- bees use it. Okay. But we’re not using it at the moment. I thought it was a pigeon facing in, which was like remarkable, but I’ll have to take a closer look at that.

Yeah. It’s meditative. And then on the opposite side is this post and beam, and the roof itself is that slate? I can’t- It’s tiles. A tile? Okay. Yeah, of course it’d be tile. And it’s probably dimension-wise you would do meters. How many meters? No, I’ll tell you exactly. Okay. It’s a rod polo perch, which is five and a half yards, about five meters wide, and two rod polos of perches long, which is 10 meters.

Rod pole perch? Ro- rod polo perch. It’s a measurement. Okay. And I’ve got a rod polo perch. I’ll show you around there. Okay. It’s five and a half yards long. Yeah. Made of hazel, and it was originally a t- a measurement used in Domesday Book, ’cause this rod polo perch or it was a long stick really, was used to drive [00:37:00] an eight ox team.

And I’ve driven eight oxen, and this is the right length for eight oxen. Ah. And it’s a sort of standard measurement. You’ve got a rood screen in a church- Yes … often five and a half yards wide. Anyway, this building, so it’s a rod by two rods. Very nice. Couple small windows with little panes in there.

We don’t know if the windows are original. I don’t think, they might have been original, I don’t know. We’re not sure about that. And it has what- Yeah … looks to be like bars in the front because that might be have to be a legal thing. Yeah people would try and break in. Yeah. We don’t want that.

We’re handy for the house, and I’m handy with a gun, so shh. Mustn’t say things like that. Just to let that be known, yes. Yeah. Don’t mess with the distillation process. It has a field stone foundation at the base that it, has, does have cement there. , It really lends this kind of character to the whole place- Doesn’t it?

which is very cozy and historical. Yeah. And the fact that you didn’t know it was a distillation house- Extraordinary … until recently, it’s just- It’s all about lucky. Gosh … that must have been quite a day to see, once again, this, [00:38:00] you said it, lucky, just these kind of worlds converging all at- Yeah

once and- Extraordinary … my goodness. And then how did you learn distillation? How did that process- I didn’t. Okay. I’m too stupid. It’s too technical. Okay. But we bought a still from Germany, and it’s beautiful copper, like a, a pear headed. It’s got a pear shape- Yeah … copper on top and then- Yeah

copper bit below. And it’s not that technical, but I’m too stupid to learn. So , the thing arrived in crates stuck out in the driveway. And the man was coming from Germany to build it up and set it going. Being British, we didn’t want to leave it stuck out in the drive.

We actually built it. My chap who does a lot of work here built this blooming thing with no instructions, and all this pipework had to line up exactly, and he did. And the German chap came. He said, “I can’t believe this.” He kept walked round and round it. “I can’t believe this. This has never happened before, that somebody’s built their own still.”

He said, “If that, that man wants a job, he can have a job with us building stills.” Wow. Anyhow, he did it, and he lit it, [00:39:00] and away we went. And we had somebody here who learnt it from the German man who’d built the still. I can’t learn it. It’s, I’m too old to learn- So you- … this switch and that tap and all, dear.

Yeah. No. Yeah. That’s it. And probably the fire box is low. It’s low, yeah. Yeah. I can reach down there, but it’s, it’s- Yeah, but that’s a, a lot of- Has to be just right. Mustn’t be too hot, too cold. But it’s not difficult but, and it’s durable. And we have a nice young lad. He milks the cows, and he does the distilling and when he needs to do distilling.

Perfect. And put a, put 1,000 liters in a day through the still, so it’s worthwhile amount. Yeah. Definitely. Make 100, 500 50 or 100 bottles, 100 bottles of brandy. Is there a particular product when you were moving into distillation that you’re saying, “Okay, I’m going to work with the pears,” or you do some with apples too.

Apples, yeah, we do. So we make cider as well- Yeah … and distill that. And that produces a… We’ve got some really funny names. Called Jack High. So [00:40:00] it’s alluding slightly to applejack. And high means high alcohol. So just, I just like the sound of the name Jack High, so we called it that. And then the equivalent one of the perry is Naked Lady, ’cause we get flowers called naked ladies growing in the orchards.

So those are both 40% spirits. Now, we also got Poirot and Pommeau. Poirot is distilled perry which is cut back instead of to 40%, cut back to 20%. Which is, so it’s got no water in it. It’s distilled perry with fresh pear juice and then left for a year And I’m gonna give, can I give you a bit of space?

Yes, please

I won’t give you a lot because you’ve got to drive So that’s Poireau lovely for listeners there is a little bit of a light amber to it

I am a, an aficionado to these drinks. I- Oh, yeah? I bring tours to France and work with a lot of the Calvados makers [00:41:00] over there. Yeah. And I’m quite fond of the product, Oh, well done. I wanted to hear you talk a little bit about the name, Poireau? Yes. How can I put it? There was years ago- Wow

there was a man in this village distilling. All right? Like it? Cheers. Delicious. Good. Very. It’s easy, isn’t it? Very easy. It’s equivalent of sherry- … in the sense it’s 20% which is relatively high alcohol against some wines and stuff. But it’s got different areas of flavor, I find. Yeah. And there’s a sweetness to it that, Which is sorbitol, not sugar.

From the pears. So it’s unfermentable. ‘Cause the pears have sorbitol. Well done. Wow … anyway, years ago, a man came over from France, a Frenchman, and started talking about Poire, and a mate of mine made a bit, and didn’t bother with it. I said, “That’s absolutely delicious.” So w- when we started distilling, we started making that.

And then there’s the apple version, Pommeau, which is again, 20%.

Now, you’re [00:42:00] not making it as a Pommeau with apple s- juice. Yes. Oh, you are? Okay. So we make- Making it as a, a Pommeau. Okay … as, as a pr- Yeah, and that’s it. As we know in France. As you know it in France. Okay, and that would be f- findable in France, I’m sure. Yeah

Bit more color to this one Yeah. Look at the- Almost red, isn’t it? How long do you leave it in the cask before- A year. Okay. Yeah. It takes a while to sort itself out. Yeah. Okay, so this looks, you can see a little bit more heavy in the viscosity and a much deeper color here- Oh … to this, a much richer amber, almost like a cherry to it.

Yes. What kind of cask are you using? Oak. Most of them, some of them are acacia, which actually is lovely. But we got our big casks ex-sherry casks, 100 gallons So a sherry cask. Okay. Yeah. So that’s actually- Interesting. But a neutral cask. They’re neutral, yes. We don’t want a lot going on- Yeah

’cause the, the drink speaks for itself. I don’t think it needs a lot of help. No, it doesn’t. It’s unique. I have had quite a bit of Pommeau. Have you? [00:43:00] Oh, yes. In Calvados area? Yes. Have you? Yeah. Yes. I talk quite a bit about Pommeau and the use of the name because it’s a, a gray area in the, the labeling, Yeah.

We’re not sure about the label, whether that’s… I hope it’s legal. We’ll find out if it’s not. It’s 20% and it’s made as I’ve described. Yeah. So- And it and the juice that you, the apple juice that you were mixing in- Yeah … with the brandy, can you tell me a little bit about that mixture of the apple juice? It’ll be different every year. Of course, yeah. We make a virtue of that. We don’t oh, we try and make it the same every year.

A bit like Stilton cheese, it varies. And that’s the fun of it, of course yeah. And you m- you might never have that again- Yeah … exactly like that, ’cause it’ll be different varieties. Different years, different varieties of apple. We’ve got 100 varieties of apple here. Wow. All Gloucestershire varieties, and we just take our pick.

We never really know how it’s gonna turn out, but it’s always okay. Y- you have that drier profile to Pommeau that, it feels like England to [00:44:00] me. And that- Ah … I love the regionality- Yes … of the different… I would call that an English style Pommeau. Yeah. And we have now American style Pommeaus, and of course the French were like the, the main Pommeau makers that we’ve all been like going, “Wow, l- look at what you’re doing here.”

That’s a great and grand idea to bring into the drinks category. So a s- a single estate distilled and aged… A distilled, aged, and bottled. Single estate distilled, aged, and bottled. Yeah. So it’s everything’s done here. Yeah. And you’ve even drunk it here. Yeah. And that was made in 2017.

Yeah. It’s very rich. And the volume for that, that’s 20%. And the cask name is Eyt, E-Y-T. Very nice. Very nice. Yeah, boy, the two are just beautiful examples- Yeah … of the riches of your landscape here, which… how would you describe the landscape here to somebody who’s listening on the other side of the world now?

The type of landscape, it’s rolling, soft rolling [00:45:00] hills. Still a lot of hedges, hedgerows, so we’ve got this lovely field pattern. Fewer livestock than previously, because keeping livestock is seven days a week. Yeah. Yeah. And modern farmers don’t want to sit in their tractor. They’d want to be working.

And they’ll hate me for saying that. So yes, there are orchards in this area, and a lot of red soil And we’re on the River Severn, which is our longest river, flows through the county, and another little river here, the Leadon, which is just at the bottom of the hill there. That joins the Severn.

So we’ve got rivers, forest, vale, and high, blue hill. There’s a poem written about that, ’cause we’re in the Forest of Dean. There was no forest just here, but just a few miles over that way you’ve got the forest. And then the vale, which is where the river is, and then the high, blue hill, which is the Cotswolds.

And the Perry Pear trees will grow on all of those, but mostly here. In view of May Hill. In view of May Hill. Yeah. I w- I had the opportunity for the first time ever to walk up there- Did you? … when I came up to the area this past, How long ago was that? [00:46:00] Just two days ago. You’ve recovered? I got there most days.

Absolutely knackers me. I did feel a little winded- Yeah … but that, I think, was more jet lagged. And it was absolutely worth it, and I loved all the benches and just the- Yes … just spectacular. Absolutely spectacular. Magnificent. And from where we’re sitting, Charles and I, I’m looking out at this kinda like level green grass area, and out in the distance I’m seeing some w- I wanna call them mountain ranges, but w- what are they?

Are they hills or- Hills. Forest of Dean, the hills that- That’s the Forest of Dean that we’re looking out onto? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It’s kinda looks like little Smoky Mountains in the background. Yes. That’s Forest of Dean, yeah. Yeah. Are we looking southeast? Southwest. Southwest. Okay. All right.

Yeah. Just to give you a sense if you’re listening right now, it’s a, a spectacular area to come to, and magnificent products. I wanna talk a little bit more about, your cheese. Yeah. Let’s go back to that How many different cheeses do you make [00:47:00] here on the farm? About seven. Yeah. Main one is Stinking Bishop. Were you surprised by the celebrity hood that Stinking Bishop took on, or do, do you see it in that light?

I suppose so, and it made a hell of a difference to our lives. Okay. And it was, again, it was fun, why not have this crazy thing of newspaper editors queuing at the gate to interview me? Okay. I’m sure. I was interviewed in Japan and Canada, everywhere in between, and I just managed to juggle it so I was there to reply to everybody, and it was crazy.

Yeah. And I didn’t know that it was Wallace and Gromit, was the people. I didn’t know. Never heard of them, really. Yeah. And somebody said, “Hang on. You gotta look after these people. They’re gonna make your, change your life.” They sure have. I said, “Are they really?” And they did. Yeah.

And it was, again, it was just crazy fun and didn’t harm anybody, and here we still are. Would you say that is your highest demanded cheese, or is- Yes. It is. It was massive. Okay. [00:48:00] And because of claymation is what Wallace and Gromit is, in case you don’t know, listening right now. It’s like a cartoon essentially- Yes

but with claymation, right? What’s claymation? Clay. Like clay. Clay models. Yeah, clay models. That’s, I believe, how they do it. Maybe they’re doing it a different way now. Yeah. But I think it’s actually clay, little models- It is, yes … that they are doing, and it has Shaun the Sheep, and Gromit is a dog- Dog

and Wallace is his, Boss … boss. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah we were invited to a showing of the film, and there was a girl there. We were talk- Outside, we were talking to her, and she does the, the models- Okay … and puts the model. Of course, you c- you move them and then take a photograph of them.

I said, “What happens if you knock them?” He said, “We gotta start again,” she said. Oof. Can you imagine? No, I can’t imagine. That’s- but what a wonderful, crazy thing to do. And people buy into it. It’s it’s like you said, it’s fun, it’s whimsical, and it kinda brings out the best in people, and I’m all for that.

Let’s see. We have a little [00:49:00] bit of different cheeses here. And we’ve been out in the sun, rather, so I hope they’re still with us. I won’t complain, that’s for sure. So the first cheese we ever made was Double Gloucester, which is our sort of county species, which was extinct. It wasn’t being made in the county when I arrived. So that was the one we made first, and the first one we made was absolutely awful because we didn’t know what we were doing.

This orange one is the Double Gloucester. Double Gloucestered orange. That’s a hard cheese- Okay … colored orange with annatto. Next to it is Single Gloucester. Now, when I came to the county, that was extinct. It was all extinct, but nobody had made it within living memory, and that was the cheese they made on the farms to eat on the farms because it wouldn’t travel.

It’s relatively soft. So if the cows were on poor pasture or it was the wintertime, milk a bit dirty, not very nice cheese- … they’d make Single Gloucester because they’d eat it there. The Double Gloucester was the best making, and that was sent away for their income. And I’ve spoken to old people years ago.

They said when they were growing up, their parents [00:50:00] made Double and Single Gloucester. They said they never, ever ate Double Gloucester because it was too valuable. Oh, wow. It had to be sent away, and it would travel on wagons and barges to London, and from there it’s recorded as going to the United States.

It was found in Colonial Williamsburg and also to New Zealand on sailing ships. Quite extraordinary. So Double and Single. Again, Single is now protected. We’ve got a protection on it, so it can’t be made by people outside the county. So farmers with Gloucester cows are allowed to make it, and it’s protected like champagne, Appellation Contrôlée.

Double can be made anywhere. Okay. And then next to it’s the Stinking Bishop. Bit squidgy. It’s a soft cheese. It’s a squidgy, soft cheese. Yeah. It’s suffering a bit in the sun. And then we’re always fiddling around, doing new things.

This is a, a new cheese, which is blue. It’s called Hullaballoo, and that’s being exported to America, I believe. Hullaballoo? Hullaballoo. Just a name.

The Stinking Bishop, what do you [00:51:00] typically recommend having with that? What would be the right pairing of perry to have with the Stinking Bishop? I’d say something gentle like Poireau, really. I’m gonna recommend my own drinks, of course. And the blue cheese as well with Poireau. And the hard cheese, I’d possibly go for the higher alcohol Jack High or Naked Lady, which is 40% alcohol.

But I’m no great- This is incredible … connoisseur of drink. I let people like you tell me what you like, ’cause you’re gonna know a lot more than me. I’m not sure about that, but just to How would you describe the taste of this cheese for somebody who’s not having the opportunity to sit here with us right now?

That’s the most difficult question. I love the rind on the outside. Yeah. I just… Almost there’s some nuttiness there. All sorts of flavors. Yeah. I’m like you, I like the rind. I d- But some people find that too strong. Fine. Eat- I love it … eat the inner bit and [00:52:00] leave the rind, but- Yeah. No. But I haven’t got words for it, really.

You’re a wordsmith. You’re gonna give a much better description than I can. It is a soft cheese. It’s not like a brie, so- No … y- it’s of course creamy, ’cause it’s cheese, but it’s not over creamy, not super- No … fatty. It’s kinda light, which I think it would go really well with a really, a perry that would accentuate that.

I am getting the nuttiness. It’s warm. It’s a nice temperature. Yeah. And the cheese may be kinda a little dry on the outside, but I’m enjoying that texture there. Yeah. And what it looks like is the rind itself is like a orange, little hard on the bottom, a little light orange, almost like a lemon color on the outside ’cause it’s, a little thicker.

And I would r- definitely invite you to eat the entire cheese. Don’t be afraid of the rind. There’s so much flavor there. Now, that rind is interesting. We mature it in a special room, which is a certain temperature and humidity, [00:53:00] and a bacterium grows. We think it might be our own species of bacteria that’s evolved through making it so long.

Perfect. But the minute you take it out of those conditions, it’s starting to die. So that bacterial culture on the rind is dead. It’s left its flavor behind. So normally it w- if you got it just out from the figmentrum, It’ll be sticky- … wet. Get on your fingers, you can’t get it off.

That’s the smell. Yeah. And I’ll eat it like that or eat it like this. I do like it like this, actually. Yeah. How do you normally eat it? Like this. Just like this? Yeah. Wa- warm, you don’t… Are you pairing any other food with it or a, a bit of bread? Or how do, how- the trouble is when

We sit down and eat, we tend to have everything on there, and we just- Yeah … catch as catch can. Sure. Sure. But we do sit down with the staff regularly and go through it and is it okay? Like for example, that’s- it’s colored red with annatto, which is a tradition. I’m gonna try. This is the d- the double- Double Gloucester

Gloucesters. To me, that’s a bit dark. Yeah. So I’ll tell the cheese-maker, “Put lesser annatto in.” Should be more [00:54:00] an orangey color. This is more of a… Oh, I don’t know what color you’d call it. Bit darker than orange … like a apricot? A- Yes … a little bit of an apricot. Yeah

Yeah. So this, both, all, this is more of a, a hard cheese you would say, right? I’m most fussy, I’m most critical of that one. It’s the most difficult cheese to get right. That one I would say is okay But it g- There’s another click. It’s just not too bad. Come on, don’t be so hard on the- … on the cheese maker.

No. No, it’s- No, no … it’s okay. But I’m very critical of it always. Yeah, I don’t see any need to criticize it. No. That- that’s what the artist does to themself, right? Yes. I’ve got an image in my mind of how I remember it- Oh … when I was younger. Not made in the county incidentally, made in Somerset, which it used to be, ’cause it had stopped in Gloucestershire.

And anyway, there we are. We sell it and it’s fine. It goes to [00:55:00] America and it goes all over the place. It’s so this, the Double Gloucester does go to America? I think so. Okay. But of course, we sell it to wholesalers. I see. We know our cheese has been found in 32 countries. Wow. On all continents except Antarctica, and we’re working on that.

Oh, that’s fantastic. Wow, Charles, congratulations. That’s really quite a, a feather in one’s cap. But we don’t forget we’re tiny in the grand scheme of things. If we made a ton of cheese in a week, it’d be a very good week. There’s a company in the south in Devonshire they make 150 tons of cheddar a day.

Can you visualize that? No, I can’t. And it’s very good cheese. It’s block cheddar. Yeah. But it’s very good. And they don’t make the money out of the cheese, they make the w- money from the whey, making whey protein. What a funny old world. It is a funny old world. My goodness.

I’m gonna move on now to, That’s a single, which is un- The single … uncolored, so that’s sort of ivory colored. Let’s see what we have here. Boy, get a nice little aroma off of that. It’s quite soft. So in the old days, the wagons- and the barges [00:56:00] would be stacked high with cheese.

It’d be Double Gloucester. Imagine trying to stack that. That could be a problem, it would get squished. Get squished. Yeah. Which is why it didn’t travel. Like a pancake … so it was eaten locally. Yeah. Personally, if I was to go on a desert island and allowed to have one cheese rest of my life, I’ll have that.

You’d go for that one? I would. A lot of people say that. It’s quiet, it doesn’t shout, but actually you can eat it and not get filled up with it. And I do like that one. That’s done it for me now. On the rind too, I just wanna taste that again the rind with the cheese. The rind is moldy, isn’t it?

It’s not been in a plastic bag or anything. No. I think you- Wrapped in paper … miss something if you don’t go for the rind. Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna try

I’m not sure what that flavor is I’m getting, but all I’ll say is it’s absolutely delicious Yeah. And with this one, what would you typically want to have wh- which of your products would you normally have with a single? [00:57:00] Poireau Poireau Would- wouldn’t want anything too strong. So 20%.

Yeah. Poireau Poireau over Pommeau. Poireau’s a bit more gentle. Yeah. Po- Poireau seems to get a lot of things. I could see that- … ’cause it has that little bit of sweetness to move it along. Yeah. It’s light, complex. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Okay, and then the fourth cheese we have- And then near the end.

Oh. This is a blue. Yep. Hullabaloo. It started off, ’cause my hearing isn’t so good. Yeah. And in fact, this is a lie, but it makes a good story. We made this cheese, and we had a tasting in the house. And I’m told I said, “Wow,” I said, “That’s a hell of a blue.” And somebody said, “Hullabaloo.” “No, hell of a blue.”

And Hullabaloo stuck. That’s a, a fun name, yet again. It’s a fun name, and it’s just a soft, squidgy- we were talking about it this morning. It’s very modest. It doesn’t shout a lot. And the cheese-maker said perhaps that’s a good thing, ’cause it’s not gonna annoy anybody.”

‘Cause some [00:58:00] blues can be very fierce. This is the other way. You could criticize it, it’s too mild, but it is a blue. And we- It comes up on the back side. Yeah. At first it kinda invites you in, then all of a sudden you’re getting that, that classic kind of blue cheese yumminess and it becomes more complex, like mushroomy.

Yeah. It could be fiercer, couldn’t it? It could be fiercer. But it’s not over-fierce. Not at all, no. Very inviting. So that’s our most recent cheese, and it’s creating interest exporting it to America. Again, tiny quantities. We’re not big people. With a very fun name too.

That, that’s fantastic. Hullabaloo. Really works. You have all these amazing products. You’re doing all these different things. What do you think perry needs in order to get recognition? Is it something like this, the stinking bishop cheese like that we need that kind of like moment

you’re seeing obviously an uptick probably in this area. Yeah. More interest in perry now than it was 20 years ago. Yeah. What do you think would be a- Very simple question. Very simple answer too. [00:59:00] Okay. It’s people like yourself coming here and talking about it. Yeah. It’s the only way it’ll get known.

Sharing. Sharing. So thank you very much- Oh … for doing that. No, it’s massive because- … otherwise we can make our cheese here in our own little world. If nobody knows about it, nobody’s gonna buy it. And so thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Do you feel that we’re at a turning point right now or- Yes, I do.

Yes. Yeah. I do. At the end of the day, it’s fun. That’s what I always keep saying, we, the cheese makers are happy, we’re happy, and and we’re still here. . It’s a modest drink and I hope I’m modest. I’ve got a lot to say, but I hope I don’t shout too loudly and just tell people my story, why we’re here and we’re still here. And yes it’s, it doesn’t shout, which is perhaps not an advantage.

Perhaps we should shout, but it’s not my character. When you come here and talk to me, I talk to you and I’m really glad that you’re listening, ’cause nobody listens to me otherwise. It’s an absolute pleasure for me, for sure.

Any advice for growing perry pear trees [01:00:00] or particular things that you’ve learned along the way there? Yes. If you’re in England, we’ve got the National Perry Pear Centers now- … two centers. They can get graft wood, and there are people who will propagate them- … and probably keep stocks.

‘Cause otherwise you’ve gotta wait for a year while it’s propagating. So there’s, in the Gloucestershire Orchard Group website, there’s a man called Rob Watkins, and there’s… trying to think of all the names. There’s two or three people will graft them for you. And just plant them.

I planted that tree there, I planted that in 1977. It was as thick round as my thumb. Now it’s as thick round as my waist. So there’s an old saying, pears for your heirs, which is disparaging. It is true, but it’s also for yourself. I planted it in, say, ’77. About 15 years later we were making worthwhile amounts of perry- Wow

from it. So people, they’ve got this sort of negative thing of pears for your heirs. No, plant them. Plant a tree. Yeah. If you don’t plant it, it’s never gonna be a tree. You gotta start somewhere. So it’s fun to plant [01:01:00] them because, they flower and do their w- do their thing. You get to know them.

They’re like friends ’cause he’s been s- shut out there all weather since 1977. He’s my friend there. Yeah. That’s actually a Blakeney Red- Oh … otherwise known as a Circus Pear And then the one to the left of that, the bigger one there, that’s Aylton Red. Otherwise known as the Red Pear or Red Horse.

They’ve all got loads of names. Is there one pear variety that you feel people should know about? Or maybe it’s more than one. And he’s reaching- Oh, gosh … for his book now. I’m gonna show you the frontest piece of my book. Okay. That’s the Dymock Red Pear. Yeah. And like I say, the other books have got the Dymock Red Apple and the Dymock Red Plum.

But obviously I live in the village of Dymock. I wouldn’t wanna see somebody in the east of England plant 100 or 500 of those, ’cause it’s irrelevant. This is relevant to this area. It’s all very local. Let’s just look arbitrarily at a… What’s this? Cannock. Gosh. [01:02:00] Cannock is in Staffordshire.

So why is it called Cannock? I don’t know. It’s from the Forest of Dean. If I delivered in Cannock, which is in Staffordshire, north of here- … I’d be tempted to plant that tree. So maybe look what’s regional to your area, if that’s true. Yes. Most people don’t live within view- Don’t live here

of May Hill what I’m gonna say is if you’re wondering what to plant, buy my book and you can look through and s- see if anything grabs your imagination. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a, a very good tip, yeah. Delve into it and just don’t go willy-nilly on it. Although- I’m s- I’m just- … maybe you won’t go wrong that way

just looking at one, one here called Dead Boy. Certainly got a black humor. And I’ve written in the notes, “It is surprising not to find this heavy cropping variety more widespread. Its name may allude to the fact the supposed strength of its perry. Similarly, there’s a Gloucestershire cider apple named Killboy.”

That’s good advice to buy your book and to experience the, your products. [01:03:00] Are people able to come to y- your site here to purchase your products, they can buy them online. Buy it online? Yeah, we do post it out. If you were to come here, it’d be best not to turn up ’cause I get grumpy.

Okay. But it’s- To call ahead and make an arrangement. Yeah, if you… Call ahead- … and if, if you wanted something, but- … that’s the best thing, but it is a- accessible in the area, probably in a couple bottle shops, I imagine. Yes. If you kind of- In Ledbury. Ledbury, yeah. I’m just trying to think.

Even the motorway services at Gloucester, which is actually a very good services famously- … because they look after all the local farmers. And so the, our drink’s in there. And I know there’s the Mouse Trap in Hereford that k- Yes … could get your cheese, so that’s a good- yeah

tip to go there and to, Go to Mouse Trap … maybe pre-order it ahead, too, especially- Yes … if you wanna be getting the Stinking Bishop- Bishop … which is so well known. Yeah … and in London, Harrods, Fortnum & Mason- … they all have it. So yeah. Lovely. Charles, I wanna thank you for your time and taking the time today to speak to all of us here on Cider Chat.

It’s been a, an absolute honor to meet you. [01:04:00] Oh, Ria, you honor me. You’ve come such a long way. It’s amazing. Thank you for what you do for people like me. Thank you. Pleasure.

After our sit-down conversation, Charles then showed me the distillery and the rare Gloucestershire cattle he helped save. And we also had a walkabout in his orchard. I mean, I wanna tell you, walking beside him among those trees, I was thanking my lucky stars to be there with someone who has done so much for the world of pears.

Charles, thank you for following your curiosity and sharing what you’ve discovered along the way. The world is such a much better place for it all. And with that, I leave you here. This is Ria Windcaller signing off for now. Looking forward to seeing you in Ciderville. [01:05:00] Orchards. There is a reason why we do it like this.

There is a reason. There is a reason why we do it like this. We like cider. There is a reason why we do it like this. We like pomme. There is a reason why we drink it like this. We like orchards. There is a reason why we do it like this. And having fun. There is a reason why we do it like this. Yee-haw!